Breydon

[marshman]

Sorry Meantime that boat is going the wrong way and the picture on the other side shows it almost dark - the sun still appears to be up and it wasn't - it was virtually dark as the other picture shows.

[Meantime]

45 minutes ago, andyg said:

It wouldn't matter one single jot how many post you have or how big the signage is. Mistakes happen and idiots will always be idiots...

However improved signage and posts being replaced in a timely manner would lead to less people running aground as was proven when John Cressey improved the signage. Or are you suggesting that if the number of posts makes no difference that none of them should be replaced when they fall over. Perhaps you would like to see all the posts removed? The posts were installed for a reason. They should be replaced when they get damaged.

[andyg]

21 minutes ago, Meantime said:

However improved signage and posts being replaced in a timely manner would lead to less people running aground as was proven when John Cressey improved the signage. Or are you suggesting that if the number of posts makes no difference that none of them should be replaced when they fall over. Perhaps you would like to see all the posts removed? The posts were installed for a reason. They should be replaced when they get 

I couldn't careless how many post there are or how big the signage is, it won't change a thing. Close breydon off completely if you like. My point stands, mistakes will happen idiots will remain idiots and take unnecessary chances and look to blame others. Its the world we live in. What's more worrying is the thought of someone reading threads like this and all the doom and gloom within it and it scaring them half to death and putting them off. There is nothing difficult about crossing Breydon water you just need to engage your brain..

[Meantime]

You are right that mistakes will happen and if you like, idiots will be idiots, but please bear in mind that the navigation markers are not a luxury, they were installed as, and are an aid to navigation. When they fail they should be replaced in a timely manner. The Authority responsible for maintaining them has a statutory responsibility for safety. One they wanted to take over from Peel Ports. 

And far from doom and gloom to put people off from crossing Breydon, replacing those posts and improving the signage should give more people the confidence that they can cross Breydon Water in safety.

[Smoggy]

Those posts actually show up on my chart plotter on a fairly up to date sea chart so should be where they're shown or have a notice to Mariners issued.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

Abandoned boats run aground painted red and green with solar powered flashing lights would sharpen minds. 

[Meantime]

1 minute ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Abandoned boats run aground painted red and green with solar powered flashing lights would sharpen minds. 

Now there's a point. Any boat not tolled after a warning has been issued gets towed to Breydon and sunk to mark the channel. Would save on marker posts and also serve as a reminder to pay your toll. 

[OldBerkshireBoy]

Wasnt thinking of sinking them, leave them anchored and perched on the mud at all angles to sharpen minds.

[Mouldy]

1 hour ago, Ray said:

I imagine that given board members ages and experience that a number of us have been in involved in accidents of all kinds over the years.

It seems that that the ones suffered before social media were our bad luck and the ones since were because we were idiots lol

It is never pointless to try to mitigate against accidents!

Good point, Ray.  Social media has made what used to be a molehill into a mountain.  Where a simple mistake was regarded as just that, the perpetrators of such incidents are now vilified, accused of being idiots and forced to wear Ku Klux Klan style face coverings for fear of retribution by the baying masses, following making regional and national news for the heinous crimes they’ve committed.

Yes, there are idiots, who will never learn, but no one can deny that the channel for safe passage across Breydon that should be marked by regularly spaced posts, maintained by the BA in accordance with requirements, is incomplete.  If the posts were in place, yes, running aground could be attributed to the competence of the crew, but whilst posts are missing, there must be an element of doubt as to where the fault lies.

In my opinion, there are simply no excuses for not replacing the posts.  The BA are sadly lacking in their responsibility to the boating community and should get out of their ivory tower and get on with undertaking the work that they are responsible for.

[Meantime]

37 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

Good point, Ray.  Social media has made what used to be a molehill into a mountain.  Where a simple mistake was regarded as just that, the perpetrators of such incidents are now vilified, accused of being idiots and forced to wear Ku Klux Klan style face coverings for fear of retribution by the baying masses, following making regional and national news for the heinous crimes they’ve committed.

It's worth noting that the crew on board the hire boat had already spent the night on board the boat stuck on Breydon and the coastguard were called at noon the next day, which would have been just after high tide on Breydon. 

I suspect that having gone aground the crew sat it out until the next day on the hope of refloating on the next high tide and had they have been successful little would have been known about this particular incident. Possibly the high tide not being high enough or having drifted further they were unsuccessful and called the coastguard.

[annv]

Perhaps BA could give a response on how long it takes to replace the posts from being reported to being replaced, and what the cost is to replace a marker post when it gets knocked over/broken, or do they wait until there are a number that need replacing to reduce the overall cost,and do they differentiate that some are more important than others to be replaced quicker than others. John

[andyg]

Do the post actually get knocked over...I can't imagine a hire craft knocking one over even the biggest dual steer job would just bounce off it. Or do they just collapse due to age, being worn out etc.. i do accept the point that the post should be replaced as a matter of urgency. If your going to have a system to help navigation at least maintain it. 

[Mouldy]

5 minutes ago, andyg said:

Do the post actually get knocked over...I can't imagine a hire craft knocking one over even the biggest dual steer job would just bounce off it. Or do they just collapse due to age, being worn out etc.. i do accept the point that the post should be replaced as a matter of urgency. If your going to have a system to help navigation at least maintain it. 

If they’re wood, they are biodegradable, just like a wooden boat!  😁😉. Over time, they probably rot , weaken and could be knocked over by a passing craft.  Even if they were steel, in salty water, they’d still rot over time.  Like everything, they have a life expectancy, which is clearly shorter than what  the BA expected.

They'd be better spending their resources on maintaining safe navigation and moorings than investing in signs dotted all over the county, proclaiming National Park status for The Broads.  My opinion obviously.

[Meantime]

18 minutes ago, andyg said:

Do the post actually get knocked over...I can't imagine a hire craft knocking one over even the biggest dual steer job would just bounce off it

I would imagine it all depends on the age of the post and how rotten it is. Judging by the marks and scuffs you see on the posts, they get nudged on a fairly regular basis. Wood under water without oxygen never rots, or rots extremely slowly, on the other hand wet wood exposed to the atmosphere will rot much quicker. The part of the post that is constantly wet and exposed to the air due to the rise and fall of the tide is the bit most at risk of rotting. Which begs the question, when you see a missing post, how much of it is still left just under the surface of the water?

Maybe, just maybe an extra reason why they should be replaced in a timely manner.

Edited to add:

I believe it was a snapped off post on Barton Broad which holed a boat a few years back. In the channel on the approach towards Neatishead.

[Happy]

2 hours ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Abandoned boats run aground painted red and green with solar powered flashing lights would sharpen minds. 

  Would they have to be licenced and have a BSC?  

[TheQ]

4 minutes ago, Happy said:

  Would they have to be licenced and have a BSC?  

Boats at university to get a BSC , maybe they could teach the drivers how to helm a boat..

[RumPunch]

50 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I would imagine it all depends on the age of the post and how rotten it is. Judging by the marks and scuffs you see on the posts, they get nudged on a fairly regular basis. Wood under water without oxygen never rots, or rots extremely slowly, on the other hand wet wood exposed to the atmosphere will rot much quicker. The part of the post that is constantly wet and exposed to the air due to the rise and fall of the tide is the bit most at risk of rotting. Which begs the question, when you see a missing post, how much of it is still left just under the surface of the water?

Maybe, just maybe an extra reason why they should be replaced in a timely manner.

Edited to add:

I believe it was a snapped off post on Barton Broad which holed a boat a few years back. In the channel on the approach towards Neatishead.

Yep

[Mouldy]

Interestingly, I’ve just seen a post on FB by a dayboat hire company based in Brundall, who are suffering issues with weed growth hampering the operation of their boats in areas around their base and Thorpe Green, where they suggest will be out of bounds to hirers.  It does seem that the BA is a little slow to get their act together this year to maintain safe navigation across the network, with weed cutting, post replacement and mooring maintenance all suffering.

[grendel]

on the subject of twilight, by this term are we discussing civil twilight, nautical twilight or astronomical twilight (which at this time of year lasts all night)

[grendel]

civil twilight is when the sun is 6 degrees below the horizen, nautical twilight is from 6 degrees to 12 degrees, and astronomical twilight is between 12 degrees and 18 degrees

[Meantime]

I think we have to go by the BA Byelaws. They define that navigation lights should be exhibited between sunset and sun rise. Since hire boats generally do not have nav lights, they should be moored up by sunset. In the interpretations they also state that "By night" means between sunset and sunrise.

[marshman]

Perhaps ,as far as weed cutting is concerned, perhaps they should just pick up the phone and ask the BA??? The northern cutter is about to start on the Thurne again for the third time this year.

The southern one is probably on the Waveney or at least thats my guess. That post ought to be moved to a new thread to leave this clear for this Breydon thread. 

Incidentally do they cut adjacent waterways or dykes - I suspect not?

 

[FlyingFortress]

1 hour ago, marshman said:

Perhaps ,as far as weed cutting is concerned, perhaps they should just pick up the phone and ask the BA??? The northern cutter is about to start on the Thurne again for the third time this year.

The southern one is probably on the Waveney or at least thats my guess. That post ought to be moved to a new thread to leave this clear for this Breydon thread. 

Incidentally do they cut adjacent waterways or dykes - I suspect n

Genuine question MM 

Is Thorpe Cut considered an adjacent waterway or part of the navigation?