A Tow From Stalham To Brundall - End July

[EdwardCharlesMitchell]

Interesting. 

If I lived locally, or could take more time off from work in London - then this would not be an issue.

I've found it interesting that not only are there not enough electric charging posts but more, by and large you can't reserve time on them.  

My plan is for Dawn Star to join you all on the cruise in 2023!

[Vaughan]

I hope @BroadsAuthority are reading this thread today!

[grendel]

well the electric posts are designated charging posts, so in theory there should be a ruling whereby an electric boat requiring charging can commandeer a post for that purpose, over someone just using it to plug into shore power. unfortunately the broads authority dont seem to have put this ruling into effect, which can leave the electric boat stranded and unable to charge until a post becomes available, at risk therefore of overstaying the 24 hours at a mooring due to being unable to proceed., this also makes the whole process of planning a route reliant on availability of charge points.

[EdwardCharlesMitchell]

That's it in a nutshell. In a couple of instances, I've asked the boat on the charging post if I can use a splitter, 

share their charge, and give them a cash contribution for doing so. Nearly every time the boaters have been friendly, and amenable. Nearly.

I was genuinely surprised to find no charging points at Womack Water, nor at Thurne Dyke. Which means you're pretty much stuck between Potter Heigham and Acle.

None of this presents much of an issue during the cold, off season months. Round about now though ..........

[annv]

Hi Edward Have you considered a 24v/48v DC generator as this would be cheaper than a complete new Nanni engine or is space the deciding factor. John

[EdwardCharlesMitchell]

Hi John,

Thanks for your message. I did give a generator a lot of thought. 

The conclusion I finally came to though was for one long term fix. I figured that a brand new engine, rather than modifications and additions to the existing equipment would be although pricey at the outset, a good route in the long run.

Thanks again,

Edward

[annv]

Thanks Edward for your reply wish you well on your choice it would be good if when you have had a chance to compare the difference in electric and diesel you will share your conclusions  with us. As I intend to go electric with a dc generator and traction battery's on my next boat, i will how ever keep diesel heating as i think this is the way to go. BUT!! as i have never had experience of electric drive and any down side before it is all theoretical until i can  proof different. Perhaps you can help with this. John

[Meantime]

3 hours ago, grendel said:

well the electric posts are designated charging posts, so in theory there should be a ruling whereby an electric boat requiring charging can commandeer a post for that purpose

I believe the first charging points were paid for, or heavily subsidised by a sustainability grant to encourage electric boating, however the problem doesn't just end with allowing an electric boat to commandeer a post for charging purposes, given that most are on public moorings paid for out of the general toll. All things being equal priority should be given to an electric boat wishing to recharge over one which is plugged in to power the oven or boil a kettle. It could even be argued that if you put credit on a meter and a higher priority user came along you could lose it as their need to plug in is greater than yours. However imagine you're moored at Ranworth or Horning and there are no available moorings left and along comes an electric boat that needs to recharge to continue its journey. Would a non electric boat that is plugged in have to move off to make space for the electric boat that needs to plug in. Would a non electric boat that is not even plugged in have to move off to make space? 

There clearly needs to be an expansion of the number of electric charging points, but it is an expensive business especially in very rural areas, who pays for it? Should there be a network of special moorings purely reserved for electric only boats, and if so should it be funded from a different pot, either a government grant or an electric boat toll?

The BA really needs a clearer policy around the whole issue of electric boating and also the placement of posts, and also a clear hierarchy of post usage. Perhaps one mooring nearest to each post should be reserved for all electric boats only, with anyone else able to use the mooring, but must stay with their boat and be prepared to move on should the space be needed by an electric boat. 

[FlyingFortress]

V Interesting discussion.

I think the OP has very well explained in a nutshell how all electric boating is not practical at the moment. Very much in line with my views about all electric motoring.

I have said on here before that I did have occasion to re moor a hybrid hire boat and was really impressed. But of course this comes at a cost that most private owners are not prepared to pay.

[MargeandParge]

This is unintentionally probably a very stupid post, would it be as environmentally friendly to run a petrol or small diesel generator on the deck and connected all the way, as a tug will run on diesel with a  crew and return without your boat but still burning diesel. 

I am sorry to ask a stupid question but have no Idea about the answer. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[Meantime]

16 minutes ago, MargeandParge said:

This is unintentionally probably a very stupid post, would it be as environmentally friendly to run a petrol or small diesel generator on the deck and connected all the way,

A slight digression but very pertinent to this subject. Batteries do not make electricity, they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas powered plants or diesel fueled generators. So to say an electric boat is zero emission or environmentally friendly is not at all valid!!!!

[FlyingFortress]

1 hour ago, Meantime said:

A slight digression but very pertinent to this subject. Batteries do not make electricity, they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas powered plants or diesel fueled generators. So to say an electric boat is zero emission or environmentally friendly is not at all valid!!!!

Totally agree 

[rightsaidfred]

I think it is  a simple fact that it is and always will be physically impossible to provide  any where near enough charging points in sufficiently diverse locations given the available number of moorings to make totally electric boats viable in any numbers which in turn means iit will never be cost effective to expand the network.

Fred

[EdwardCharlesMitchell]

" "A cruiser must have the capacity to maintain 7MPH for at least 4 hours before it loses power as the batteries become discharged.  Any less than that, it is not safe to navigate through Yarmouth.

I fear that this is one of the main things that protagonists of electric power are not allowing for in their calculations." "

Now THAT is extremely interesting - and I know for a fact that currently I could not claim this.

All of your posts have been extremely interesting and informative. 

What I've learned since I bought Dawn Star is that if I were local to the Broads, and therefore content to make modest explorations that fit within a weekend, I would leave the engine as it is. There is a lot of charm in silent, vibration and diesel fume free cruising. That part is very tranquil.

On the other side of the balance sheet is watching the charge monitor running down pretty rapidly, and not knowing if you can guarantee finding a free charging post. Not so much of an issue during off season months, but during high season, it's an education finding a mooring spot at all, let alone with an electric post! This is not a moan by the way. I am just discovering as I go along. 

I count buying Dawn Star as probably the best decision I've ever made.

But for the record, to make the trip from Stalham to Brundall in one go, without needing to recharge the batteries - I'm using the services of a specialised towing company. Something to think about maybe.

In any event, all of your viewpoints and advice have been most welcomed, and much appreciated.

Best, Edward

[RumPunch]

I have wondered if there is a way of coming up with some kind of water powered dynamo to top the batteries as you move. Won't provide huge amounts I know, but add panels and it'd help lessen the charge surely

[CambridgeCabby]

14 minutes ago, RumPunch said:

I have wondered if there is a way of coming up with some kind of water powered dynamo to top the batteries as you move. Won't provide huge amounts I know, but add panels and it'd help lessen the charge surely

I’d suggest a 30+ hp Diesel engine with an alternator 🤣🤣

[Smoggy]

But the energy has to come from somewhere, in this case more required to push the boat along to spin the dynamo.

[grendel]

there was a comparison done on the cruising the cut channel a few months back, the consensus was the full electric boat managed the course, but even with 60 foot of roof covered with solar panels, that it would need 3 days to recharge the batteries, easy done on the canals where you can moor up for a couple of weeks, but on a waterway with 24 hour moorings?

[grendel]

 

[EdwardCharlesMitchell]

Mmmm. 

Horses for courses, I guess.

 

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, EdwardCharlesMitchell said:

I fear that this is one of the main things that protagonists of electric power are not allowing for in their calculations." "

Now THAT is extremely interesting - and I know for a fact that currently I could not claim this.

 

I did mention that I was talking about hire boats, where their inexperienced skippers are likely to need enough power to get them out of trouble when they do the crossing at the wrong state of the tide.  I also remember your boat being at Beccles and I think it was Griff who mentioned that you needed a day or two plugged in, in order to get enough charge back into the batteries to get home again.

A hire boat on a week's cruise will need to be able to recharge as necessary, every night, ready for the next day.  Every night, every day, if not a cruising holiday would just not be practical.

In addition, we have experts such as Grendel here, who can tell us that the present "charging points" on moorings are nowhere near powerful enough to recharge a boat such as Dawn Star overnight.  They are simply plug points for domestic battery chargers and microwaves.  By the same token, you cannot recharge an electric car by running a plug lead out of the window from a plug point in the kitchen.

Am I right to be basing my thinking on hire boats?  Well, I can't see any point in insisting that all private boats now go electric, but hire boats can be exempt and stay on diesel, as they are cruising more often!  This is why I am most interested in your experience with electrics, as if it doesn't work for you, it certainly won't work for the hire boatyards.

[rightsaidfred]

I think the biggest problem now is we want to keep reinventing the wheel by replacing the round one with a square one to satisfy an agenda.

Fred

[ranworthbreeze]

Usually there is only one 32 amp socket on a Broads Authority electric post. As already stated Electric boats are bit of a none starter Herbert Woods found this out when they were operating electric day boats.

 

[grendel]

yes Vaughan, your 16A charging post will be 3.8kW , the 32A connection double that at 7.6kW, that might just charge an electric car in 11 hours, the 32A equivalennt is what most homes would get, its not the fast charge option, but the overnight option. a standard 13A plug will give just about 3kW, which might charge a vehicle in 24 hours.

boats of course can mount much larger battery banks than cars, so will need proportionally higher charge currents, even a standard fast charger at 30 kW will take a while to charge a boat, and that is nearly 4x the size of the current charge posts, this will mean new cables to supply them will be needed, plus more charge posts generally which is another challange at some of the moorings, just getting the supply to the mooring.

for example a 1000kW substation (the standard size) can supply 33 fast charge posts

now imagine how many substations Richardsons would require just to charge their fleet? (and their electricity bill)

[grendel]

further to the above richardsons currently share a 2000kW substation with the business across the road, so they could probably comfortably only charge about 30 boats with what they have available (if they shut off the electric to everything else.)