Considering An Upgrade

[Davydine]

Hi all,

We have booked Flash of Light from Herbert Woods for a weekend break next year, but I am considering upgrading to one of the connoisseur boats, either Sapphire or Amber light.

Just wondering if anyone here has any thoughts.

thanks

David

[NeilB]

To be honest, I’m not sure that’s much of an upgrade.  The Connoisseurs have had a tough life and not much in the way of upgrades, although a couple have been fitted with bow thusters.  We had one a couple of years ago and the bow thruster money would have been better spent on cleaning the hull / superstructure, ensuring door handles were not falling off, sliding canopy working properly, updating the interior ect.

[Broads01]

I tend to agree with Neil, I'd say if the layout and style of a Connoisseur suits you better then go for it but I wouldn't expect the overall standard to be much different.

[andyg]

Think Neil has summed that up perfectly to be honest. Personally I wouldn't class that as an upgrade in quality, maybe in internal space but that would be it. Sorry if that's sounds negative but just an honest opinion. I've hired both designs in the past. 

[Davydine]

Thanks all, this will be a second Broads holiday next year, we already have a week booked, and so we deliberately chose “Flash” because it was the cheapest boat that had 3 separate cabins, which suits our needs perfectly.

I know that the Connoisseur boats aren't a huge upgrade, I am trying to decide which layout I prefer. The saloon and galley look more spacious but I am not sure about the side entrance.

I did spot that there were a couple of Connoisseur boats with bow thrusters but they are even more expensive and I don't want to spend the money just for a bow thruster. 
 

Thanks,

David

[Mouldy]

25 minutes ago, Davydine said:

Thanks all, this will be a second Broads holiday next year, we already have a week booked, and so we deliberately chose “Flash” because it was the cheapest boat that had 3 separate cabins, which suits our needs perfectly.

I know that the Connoisseur boats aren't a huge upgrade, I am trying to decide which layout I prefer. The saloon and galley look more spacious but I am not sure about the side entrance.

I did spot that there were a couple of Connoisseur boats with bow thrusters but they are even more expensive and I don't want to spend the money just for a bow thruster. 
 

Thanks,

David

As much as I admire the design of the Connoisseur boats, I have to say that I agree with the other comments already posted.  Some are in looking extremely shabby now, which I personally feel is a great shame as they are possibly the best designed 6 - 8 berth boats available.  They remain very spacious though, with roomy heads and a very usable galley.  I’m sure when we hired one in 1995 (number N758 - and why have I remembered that number), the galley originally was equipped with two fridges.

On the subject of the side door, although it could be seen as being a downside, what it does offer is independent access through the boat, without having to pass through the aft cabin to gain entry.

[andyg]

I'd agree with you on that Mouldy. I guess the latest design of a comparable centre cockpit craft would be the RC45. We found the centre cabin on broadsman very cramped and really only suited for children. The galley was not great either to be honest. Still a fantastic boat but it has its drawbacks. The old CC boats still prove very popular today and I would imagine it would be worth putting together some kind of refit program for the fleet. No doubt a considerable investment but I'm sure they'd recoup that investment in time. Like has been said already some are looking pretty grim and they've look like that for a while now.

[webntweb]

26 minutes ago, Mouldy said:

As much as I admire the design of the Connoisseur boats, I have to say that I agree with the other comments already posted.  Some are in looking extremely shabby now, which I personally feel is a great shame as they are possibly the best designed 6 - 8 berth boats available.  They remain very spacious though, with roomy heads and a very usable galley.  I’m sure when we hired one in 1995 (number N758 - and why have I remembered that number), the galley originally was equipped with two fridges.

When we hired Connoisseurs in France they had two fridges; one we used for general food, the other for wine and cheese - no matter which cheese you bought they stank and we didn't want cheese flavoured milk. Perhaps N758 had returned from France.

[Mouldy]

51 minutes ago, webntweb said:

When we hired Connoisseurs in France they had two fridges; one we used for general food, the other for wine and cheese - no matter which cheese you bought they stank and we didn't want cheese flavoured milk. Perhaps N758 had returned from France.

I doubt it.  They were relatively new at the time and it didn't have the additional rubbing strakes that are usually found on craft returning from France.  Looking at the Database, it did go to France, but much later on.

[oldgregg]

Usually the boats on a prefix reg have not been to France and still have their original reg from around 1992-1994, those with a suffix are the ones which came back around 2009-10. 

Generally the gel coat is not in great condition if they've been to the south of france, as the sun is not kind to it.

The C40 / C45 are a great boat, but Woods need to look after them better in my opinion.

[Wussername]

One came into Reedham the other day. The tide was going out very quickly. 40 to 42ft of boat I suspect. From stem to stern , starboard and port there was not a single grab rail. They had  all been removed.

The crew, the Broads Authority Quay ranger were somewhat challanged in a demanding situation.

Andrew

[YnysMon]

No grab rails? I wouldn’t want to hire one of those.

[andyg]

16 minutes ago, YnysMon said:

No grab rails? I wouldn’t want to hire one of those.

I wouldn't of accepted it, I would of refused to take it out of the yard. That's just not on and I struggle to believe a yard would of presented a boat in that condition. Basic safety equipment on a boat. 

[Wussername]

I took several phographs of the boat. With the hirers permission. I explained why. He asked if I was from the Broads Authority. He was obviously concerned. I informed him that I had nothing to do with the BA whatsoever. He allowed me to continue to photograph the boat.

What a dreadful state of affairs. 

I am aware of "name and shame" I fully understand,  I really do.

But there comes a time. A time where some need to be held accountable. 

Those whose actions defy any degree of responsibility whatsoever.

This forum, could and should be able to identify those individuals who blatantly ignore a code of conduct and pursue them accordingly.

In the absence of authority.

Andrew

 

[Wussername]

2 hours ago, andyg said:

I wouldn't of accepted it, I would of refused to take it out of the yard. That's just not on and I struggle to believe a yard would of presented a boat in that condition. Basic safety equipment on a boat. 

Andy. You don't need to struggle. Happy to forward to you pictures of the boat by pm. Happy to post on the forum. But mindful of the forums position on such matters, a difficult situation. Which I have no intention of challenging as I am fully supportive of their position under such circumstances.

 

[ExSurveyor]

Andrew, have you thought about contacting the yard, BA or the Hire boat federation.

Is the removal cosmetic  or some other reason do you think.

Were they ever fitted.

I assume the boat would have originally passed the required safety standards to join the hire fleets.

[andyg]

12 minutes ago, Wussername said:

Andy. You don't need to struggle. Happy to forward to you pictures of the boat by pm. Happy to post on the forum. But mindful of the forums position on such matters, a difficult situation. Which I have no intention of challenging as I am fully supportive of their position under such circumstances.

 

By all means, I would never make them public.. 

[Wussername]

11 minutes ago, ExSurveyor said:

Andrew, have you thought about contacting the yard, BA or the Hire boat federation.

Is the removal cosmetic  or some other reason do you think.

Hi Mark 

Cosmetic is no excuse to my mind. It really is not. 

The BA, the Broads Hire Boat Federation,  British Marine will have established the Quality Accredited Boatyard Standard by 01 April 2023. 

To my mind the most important piece of legislation in my lifetime.

It will impact on the hie boat industry, and inevitably on the private owner in the course of time.

My concern with regard to this particular boat is important to my mind but pales into insignificance with regard to the general scheme of things.

 

[Wussername]

A coroners court in November of this year may well make recommendations. The coroner does not have the ability to enforce recommendations.. But the coroner is able to designate a person or an authority to carry out the courts recommendations.

I leave you to surmise the courts choice.

[NeilB]

There is a dual station Alphacraft 42 design which had a sort of sunken / flush mount handrail, could it have been one of those?

They were not very good so most yards retrofitted proper handrails.

[Vaughan]

I have just checked and all the Connoisseur boats on Woods website are photographed with side handrails, although there is nothing at all for the first 7ft or so of the bow.  On the fore-deck, you are on your own!

To be honest I don't know what the regulations are about handrails ; I have always rather taken them for granted.  Wussername says they had been removed, so he presumably saw screw holes where they had been before?

If they are part of the BSS then clearly a boat without them would be a "fail" but as to how they should be constructed, how high, how long, how strong, etc., that would need looking up.  I suppose it has always been a matter of very obvious good practice.

Until a boat turns up in Reedham without any!

A centre cockpit boat with a big canopy, such as these, always has a long gap amidships when the canopy is open, where there is nothing to hold on to at all, just where you need it when getting off, or when getting out of the cockpit.  If there were clear regulations I would have thought this area would require a separate rail but as none of them have it, I assume the rules must be a bit vague.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Vaughan
line added

[andyg]

I think we need to be careful here, I personally don't accept woods sent a craft out with the hand rails missing. In fact in all my years hiring I never witnessed anything like that. I've seen  Plenty of boats with hand rails bent squashed etc but never missing. That would be major H&S own goal in my opinion. Like Vaughan has tried to indicate, maybe the canopy was down that's a large chunk of the superstructure missing and could possibly give the impression of no hand rails. More importantly though I believe the ranger would of picked up on the missing rails and been straight on to herbert woods. 

[Gracie]

The other well know boat yard in the North has Dominica, a Connoisseur I believe, She had grab rails last time I saw her in the yard which may have changed since then of course

David, personally I would stick with Flash of Light, she's a nice craft, I'm with Neil, not much of an upgrade in the Connoisseurs apart from maybe a tad more space

Have a lovely time what ever you decide x

[Vaughan]

Well, it is an otherwise quiet morning here, so I have looked up the BSS on their own website.

For private craft, I have not found any regulation concerning handrails or any other deck gear.  It is all concerned with interiors such as fuel, gas, ventilation, etc.

There are extra rules for hire boats, which are very long, so I give a brief précis here :

"External crew deck areas"  must be non slip and provided with "suitable hand-holds in good condition".  These are checked by the examiner, using "light manual force".

Hire boat owners may nominate parts of the boat as handholds although they are not fitted as such.  This might be the corner of a cabin top or the corner of a windscreen.  It could even be the steering wheel!

Owners should "base handhold provision on established boatbuilding construction standards".  I assume this to be ERCD, since I am not aware of any others for inland waterways craft.  So even that, would only apply to boats built after 1992.

So, as I suspected, it all sounds rather vague and open to a lot of interpretation.  Perhaps, as Wussername says, recommendations made in November by coroner's court will be rather more specific.

All the same, there is an elephant in the room :

Gaps between handrails in "crew deck areas" must not exceed 1.5 metres.  I would think almost all traditional hire boats on the Broads, would fail on that one!

[Smoggy]

For private boats bss don't care if you sink or fall in and drown, it's fire and explosion risks mainly which is how most injured or killed on boats used to meet their fate before bss so it has worked, gas fridges and petrol engines possibly the biggest culprit.

I remember towing a broken down boat into a berth on the great ouse and as soon as the skipper lifted the engine cover all I could smell was hot petrol, I was getting ready to untie rapidly.