Winter Upgrades And Maintenance.

[Gracie]

7 minutes ago, MargeandParge said:

Hi Gracie 

Boat ownership is rewarding because it gives you another venue to have a bar.

So glad you are posting again 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge. 

Thank you Marge and Parge, may I just say that you are a delightful couple and it's a pleasure to engage with you on this forum 

Now enough of that, we will get our wrists slapped for thread drift  x

[MargeandParge]

Better go back to winter maintenance then.

We always use thermal underwear when it gets cold

Have a nice soup in the freezer. 

Finally scavenge enough wood to light a fire.

Stay cosy Regards Marge and Parge 

[BroadAmbition]

We’ll find out what is fitted and get the correct size calculated.  1500 revs with a Perkins attached to a velvet drive gearbox will turn the prop at the same speed as 1500 revs from our Nanni with the same gearbox after all.

You are correct, unfortunately however it isn't as simple as that

Griff

[MargeandParge]

A big prop needs a thrust block.To save the gear box and engine mounts. Also gives the cutlass bearing some stick from the torque on the shaft

 

Regards Marge and Parge 

[grendel]

it will vary with the power curves of the two engines, at what revs they produce peak power, whether they have more torque at lower revs, or less.

nanni - https://nannienergy.com/downloads/leaflets/Leaflet N4.40 ENG_april2017.pdf

BMC -

Those are just examples as I have no idea what the particular engines the boat had / has are

[Karizma]

We had Karizma taken out of the water at the weekend for the first time since she was returned to the Broads back in December 2020, for winter storage. I wasn't sure what to expect, but after doing a total of 490 engine running hours (most of then cruising) since she was put in the water, she was very clean underneath and looking good.

After an initial look round, I've noticed some play in the cutlass bearing and so a replacement will be added to our winter maintenance list before she's put back in the water next year.

Having never replaced a cutlass bearing before, can I assume that if I remove the prop (if the rudder doesn't get in the way!), and remove the two nuts shown in the attached photo, the cutlass bearing housing (not sure what it's called?) should pull away from the keel and slide along the shaft ? or is that far too easy and naive on my part?

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Steve

[MargeandParge]

42 minutes ago, Karizma said:

We had Karizma taken out of the water at the weekend for the first time since she was returned to the Broads back in December 2020, for winter storage. I wasn't sure what to expect, but after doing a total of 490 engine running hours (most of then cruising) since she was put in the water, she was very clean underneath and looking good.

After an initial look round, I've noticed some play in the cutlass bearing and so a replacement will be added to our winter maintenance list before she's put back in the water next year.

Having never replaced a cutlass bearing before, can I assume that if I remove the prop (if the rudder doesn't get in the way!), and remove the two nuts shown in the attached photo, the cutlass bearing housing (not sure what it's called?) should pull away from the keel and slide along the shaft ? or is that far too easy and naive on my part?

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Steve

Not sure check inside the boat I took the shaft out. Dropped the rudder and left the stern tube in situ. I think those nuts hold the whole tube in place. 

I had to cut our bearing a channel and remove that then made up a gadget that went inside and caught the inner edge then tapped away till it finally let go

If you have to do this be very careful not to damage the tube

Regards Marge and Parge 

[Vaughan]

The outboard bearing is threaded onto the shaft tube, which is also threaded onto the inboard bearing (stuffing box).

The cutless bearing is held in place by grubscrews, which must be loosened before withdrawing the bearing.  Sometimes these cannot be freed and even then, the bearing may be very difficult to get out, so it is best to remove it from the shaft and then remove the cutless bearing on a hydraulic bench press.  No need to remove the prop shaft unless it has been damaged by wear in the bearing.  Strangely, the worst damage to a prop shaft in this area is caused by fishing lines.

 

[Karizma]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

The outboard bearing is threaded onto the shaft tube, which is also threaded onto the inboard bearing (stuffing box).

thanks for the info Vaughan, if the outboard bearing is threaded to the shaft tube, should I expect the two threads / nuts shown in the photo to come completely out, allowing the outboard bearing to rotate?

[Vaughan]

4 minutes ago, Karizma said:

should I expect the two threads / nuts shown in the photo to come completely out, allowing the outboard bearing to rotate?

Yes, and you may have trouble in a GRP boat to get a spanner on the bolts inside the keel, especially the one under the shaft!  Several extensions of a socket set may be required.

Plenty of mastic in the hole when you re-assemble it, or you may get leaks.

[Karizma]

25 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Yes, and you may have trouble in a GRP boat to get a spanner on the bolts inside the keel, especially the one under the shaft!  Several extensions of a socket set may be required.

Plenty of mastic in the hole when you re-assemble it, or you may get leaks.

Thanks again - at least I now know what to expect - wish me luck!

[MargeandParge]

Not all shafts have a threaded bearing housing a Vetus with double lip seal and no packing is a wet shaft to the seals.

Be careful as it could be expensive if you go wrong

Those two bolts hold the shaft in situ on our boat.

Regaeds Marge and Parge 

[Karizma]

30 minutes ago, MargeandParge said:

Not all shafts have a threaded bearing housing a Vetus with double lip seal and no packing is a wet shaft to the seals.

Be careful as it could be expensive if you go wrong

Those two bolts hold the shaft in situ on our boat.

Regaeds Marge and Parge 

Thanks for the warning - is there any way of knowing / working out which type I might have? or just be very careful and remain curious if things don't go as expected.

[MargeandParge]

Not sure I can see the grub screw I think and Vaughan knows far more than I do all I know is if I got it wrong it would have been a mess.

My stern tube goes right to the end of the mounting you have photographed and so the cutlass bearing is in the tube.

I have no packing or stern gland just a double lip seal thar is water cooled and fed with silicon grease to keep it lubed periodically. 

Sorry I had a lot of onlookers just itching to get Stilsons rapped around parts that would never have moved.

Thank goodness for Marge she fended off brilliantly 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

 

[Karizma]

7 minutes ago, MargeandParge said:

I have no packing or stern gland just a double lip seal thar is water cooled and fed with silicon grease to keep it lubed periodically. 

this is what my 'stuffing box' looks like from inside the boat.

Stern tube going to the prop on the left hand side of the photo.

[MargeandParge]

4 hours ago, Karizma said:

this is what my 'stuffing box' looks like from inside the boat.

Stern tube going to the prop on the left hand side of the photo.

I don't want to get out of my depth here. If you Google Vetus shop and go to stern gear you can see what I have got. No one in Norfolk around the yards we're familiar with the set up. The plate that those two bolts hold on is a flange on the tube.

Your set up might be different but the tube looks like a wet tube to me with the seal some distance from the stern .

My first point of contact would be Haines as I think they built it.

Have a look around the stern how the tube goes through the keel and try to find the makers name as there will be diagrams on line somewhere 

I can only talk about my experience and I am  not a professional . Others are more qualified than me. 

If you think I can help in anyway please let me know. 

Steady as you go and good luck.

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

 

 

[Vaughan]

There is a big difference between the Vetus system and the conventional Broads arrangement, which is still in use today.

Karizma's photo is definitely of the Broads system and I notice that the stuffing box has a copper water pipe which provides "forced water" lubrication to the cutless bearing, via the shaft tube, from the raw water cooling of the engine. This is because the outboard bearing is mounted on the end of the keel and so does not have its own flow of water.  Some outboard bearings have holes, like a fish's gills, in the side, which allow water to flow inside the bearing.  If you have these, they must be kept clear of mud.  A cutless bearing mounted on its own separate "P" bracket is lubricated naturally.

The Vetus system has neoprene and rubber bearings at both ends, with the stern gland as a form of rubber sock, so this needs forced water lubrication.  I have used these with hire boats and they do work all right with a small diameter shaft, although I question whether they are sturdy enough for a hire boat.  They also have no adjustment, so if they start to fail you have to replace them, which means uncoupling the shaft from the gearbox and removing the flange coupling, as well as the thrust block, if there is one.

By the way, when re-fitting the outboard bearing, we always used to seal it with Boss White, which I believe is still available.  If not I am sure there is a more modern equivalent but be careful to use a supple form of mastic which does not fully dry out.  Never use a mastic which is also any form of adhesive (most especially SIKAFLEX) or you will never get the bearing off again next time!

On older GRP boats, be careful that the fixing bolt heads and nuts may be in Whitworth sizes.

After you have launched the boat again, be sure to have the alignment checked, between the shaft and the engine.

[Karizma]

As always, this forum is great for pulling on the experiences of others.

Thanks to Marge and Parge for sharing their experiences / potential concerns & to Vaughan for taking the time to share his knowledge of the different systems around and the little tips to get the job done right.

PS: just searched for Boss White (pipe jointing compound) and its readily available from our local diy stores 

 

[Karizma]

On 28/11/2022 at 18:56, Vaughan said:

The outboard bearing is threaded onto the shaft tube, which is also threaded onto the inboard bearing (stuffing box).

The cutless bearing is held in place by grubscrews, which must be loosened before withdrawing the bearing.  Sometimes these cannot be freed and even then, the bearing may be very difficult to get out, so it is best to remove it from the shaft and then remove the cutless bearing on a hydraulic bench press.  No need to remove the prop shaft unless it has been damaged by wear in the bearing.  Strangely, the worst damage to a prop shaft in this area is caused by fishing lines.

 

Thought I'd give you all an update on removing the outboard bearing this weekend ..... what a job !!!!

Following the great advice from members of this forum, i knew what to expect and proceeded to:

remove the prop - wow, this proved to be difficult, but cutting a long story short, I needed to remove the rudder to provide enough room for the puller to be placed on the prop. The prop still refused to move, until a little internet searching found a tip of pour boiling water over the prop whilst the puller was under tension - ping - off it came.

outboard bearing removal - after removing the two bolts (top and bottom of the outboard bearing) and purchasing a large pipe wrench, we started rotating the outboard bearing - this started to also turn the shaft tube connected to the stuffing box, but now the thread seal was 'broken' I decided to carried on removing the outboard bearing (with the shaft tube attached). 

shaft tube removal - another trip to the local diy store to purchase another pipe wrench so I can hold the outboard bearing as well as the shaft tube to separate the two.

The task took most of the day to remove, but would have been much quicker if I'd have had all the tools required before I started !! Still a lot of satisfaction once the job was done - all I need to do now is remove the cutlass bearing, purchase a replacement and put it all back together next weekend!

Thanks again for all the guidance from this forum to allow me to attempt the task in the first place.

[Vaughan]

Well done.  I'm glad I didn't suggest it was going to be easy!

All the same, if all it took to free the prop was boiling water, you were lucky - it often needs a blowlamp.  It might be a good idea to get that prop re-dressed before you put it back.  It is quite a big one and it is important that the blades are still in shape and balance.  If not, guess what?  It wears the cutless bearing!

Shaft looks in good shape from the photo apart from a bit of black rubber off the bearing.  Possibly caused by fishing line. If in doubt, measure the diameter with vernier callipers.

Don't forget to re - pack the rudder gland when you put it back.

I notice you have marked the position of the bearing on the tube before you unscrewed it but this is not important, as the two bearings are stopped from unscrewing by their own mounting bolts. The thread may have been stuck because someone put Locktite on it.  Boss White should do perfectly well.

With all this disturbance, it will be very important to check shaft alignment with the engine when the boat is back in the water.

[OldBerkshireBoy]

10 hours ago, Karizma said:

Thought I'd give you all an update on removing the outboard bearing this weekend ..... what a job !!!!

Following the great advice from members of this forum, i knew what to expect and proceeded to:

remove the prop - wow, this proved to be difficult, but cutting a long story short, I needed to remove the rudder to provide enough room for the puller to be placed on the prop. The prop still refused to move, until a little internet searching found a tip of pour boiling water over the prop whilst the puller was under tension - ping - off it came.

The task took most of the day to remove, but would have been much quicker if I'd have had all the tools required before I started !! Still a lot of satisfaction once the job was done - all I need to do now is remove the cutlass bearing, purchase a replacement and put it all back together next weekend!

Thanks again for all the guidance from this forum to allow me to attempt the task in the first place.

Using the hydraulic pullers rather than a mechanical set would of made a big difference and even though the thread looks ok it is worth checking the nut still goes on easily before reassembly.

 

 

[Karizma]

10 hours ago, OldBerkshireBoy said:

Using the hydraulic pullers rather than a mechanical set would of made a big difference and even though the thread looks ok it is worth checking the nut still goes on easily before reassembly.

yes, checked the threads afterwards and they were ok - though I never thought I might damage them whilst I was doing the job with a mechanical puller.

[Karizma]

As I ended up taking the rudder off the boat to remove the outboard bearing I thought i'd give it a good sand down / repaint. Nice easy job for the afternoon I thought............ and have uncovered another slight issue (no surprise there then, after all it is boating!).

See photo attached - Looks as though there has been a spacer/metal washer? bush? between the base of the rudder shaft and the lower bracket thats started to corrode away (about 40% of the circumference missing ); I assume this is to prevent wear at the base of the rudder shaft?

I assume i'd be better off removing the rest of the remaining 'spacer' and get another one so I don't start wearing out the (brass?) housings that the rudder shaft goes into top and bottom due to alignment issues.

Am I on the right track? what do you think the 'spacer' is made of? SS?

Any idea where you can get them from?

Thanks as alway for any guidance provided.

Steve

[MargeandParge]

A lot of rudders have anodes worth investigating before you re fit. Not sure if the spacer would be softer as a sacrificial bearing or bush.

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[Vaughan]

52 minutes ago, MargeandParge said:

A lot of rudders have anodes worth investigating before you re fit. Not sure if the spacer would be softer as a sacrificial bearing or bush.

With galvanic corrosion (in water) there are certain metals which should not be mixed, e.g. stainless steel and aluminium, as they are far apart on the "galvanic scale", so one will corrode the other rapidly.

SS and bronze are quite close together, so not much problem with stern glands - unless you have a steel hull.

The rudder is steel, on a SS shaft, so it will need a sacrificial anode as these two metals are further apart on the scale.  The anode is zinc, as this corrodes much quicker than the other metals.  An anode on the prop shaft is often fitted, to protect the propellor.

A lot of this has to do with salt or brackish water but it can also happen right up-river, especially in a marina, where someone's shore power might be leaking to earth.