Sutton Staithe Moorings.

[MauriceMynah]

Yesterday (Tuesday 29th November) there were just two small craft moored on the green. One, the Freeman who appears to have taken up residency there, and the other,  a private jobbie I didn't recognise. 

My point is, it was not full of "the usual suspects " as was suggested some posts ago on another thread.

I've started this thread to break away from Simons ( CC's) "Pipedreams" thread.

I visit the Sutton Staithe Hotel on an almost daily basis, so have a reasonable knowledge of the green's mooring usage.

One of the things I can identify, is that the list of "usual suspects" is a surprisingly long one, giving the appearance of the same boats there all the time.  That is not the case, but it is the problem.

One boat to my knowledge, alternates between Stalham and Sutton. Another two normally moor in the reeds just outside Sutton, visiting once, occasionally twice a week. These are just three of the list, which I estimate is about 10 or so boats.

Individually these boats are not a problem, but collectively it does look like they are hogging the prime moorings.

If it is a problem, I don't have a solution. 

Over to you, but please play nicely.

[CambridgeCabby]

Thank you for that MM, as we only visit at weekends during the winter and we see the same boats moored up over the weekend and then again subsequent weekends it certainly gave us the impression that they had not departed at all .

I know the larger vessel you say moors between the reeds and the staithe on a rotating basis and I have no problem with his alternating 24hr moorings , it is no different to that of the much missed Graham (Calypso) who always “played within the rules” between Horning and Ranworth and never exceeded his 24hr permissions.

The Freeman , I know the BA are well aware of and they have been told there is a mechanical problem with the boat that means it cannot move under its own power and as such the BA has requested to be kept appraised of ongoing repairs , not that any seem to be ongoing ???

Your stating of the fact that Tuesday there were only two vessels moored on the green means I must apologise if any of the boats I mistakenly accused read this forum and felt they were being unjustly treated.

[PaulN]

3 hours ago, CambridgeCabby said:

Thank you for that MM, as we only visit at weekends during the winter and we see the same boats moored up over the weekend and then again subsequent weekends it certainly gave us the impression that they had not departed at all .

I know the larger vessel you say moors between the reeds and the staithe on a rotating basis and I have no problem with his alternating 24hr moorings , it is no different to that of the much missed Graham (Calypso) who always “played within the rules” between Horning and Stalham and never exceeded his 24hr permissions.

The Freeman , I know the BA are well aware of and they have been told there is a mechanical problem with the boat that means it cannot move under its own power and as such the BA has requested to be kept appraised of ongoing repairs , not that any seem to be ongoing ???

Your stating of the fact that Tuesday there were only two vessels moored on the green means I must apologise if any of the boats I mistakenly accused read this forum and felt they were being unjustly treated.

Hi Simon

I think you mean 'between Horning and Ranworth'

[CambridgeCabby]

I did indeed , have edited

[PaulN]

Personally, I believe that as part of the Broads License (Toll) the BA should require everyone to provide details of their permanent mooring. 

More and more boats, private and hire have shore power facilities and there is a much higher demand for the limited power posts that are available. I don't consider it's right the these limited facilities should be 'hogged' by continuous cruisers .

Controversial probably, but thats my view.

[Meantime]

2 hours ago, PaulN said:

I don't consider it's right the these limited facilities should be 'hogged' by continuous cruisers

 I know what you mean about the above average usage of scarce mooring and electric point resources. The problem is that if they do continuous cruise and don't stay at a mooring for more than 24hrs then they are not breaking any byelaws and are as entitled as anyone else to use those resources.

Perhaps rather than asking people to provide details of a home mooring as part of the toll application there could be a second tier of toll for those without a home mooring priced accordingly to allow for the extra usage of scarce mooring resources. In a perfect world the extra income could be used to provide additional free moorings, and even one or two areas of 48 or 72 hr moorings.

[rightsaidfred]

2 hours ago, PaulN said:

Personally, I believe that as part of the Broads License (Toll) the BA should require everyone to provide details of their permanent mooring. 

More and more boats, private and hire have shore power facilities and there is a much higher demand for the limited power posts that are available. I don't consider it's right the these limited facilities should be 'hogged' by continuous cruisers 

Controversial probably, but thats my view.

I think you will find there is no legal requirement to have a permenent mooring although you do provide details if you have one when registering your boat.

Fred

[Andrewcook]

Hi as I've have noticed these Boats since last year as to note there's Only One Shore Power I believe to which these Two Boats are getting away with blue murder I think the Broads Authority ought taken a sterner line a make a strong complaint on this matter as One Boat still has got Engine well that's a very good excuse I think upon over staying that mooring with Shore power .

[Gracie]

I've been wanting to live aboard ever since I was a little girl, I am sure the romance of it is quite different to the reality. I do often wonder why you would want to live aboard in cold, harsh winters unless you didn't have a choice. I understand the frustrations of not being able to get on a favourite mooring or access an electric post but try not to judge too harshly unless you know their story x

[ChrisB]

There will always be extra demand at Sutton and Stalham simply by way of there being a Tesco within walking distance.

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, Andrewcook said:

Hi as I've have noticed these Boats since last year as to note there's Only One Shore Power I believe to which these Two Boats are getting away with blue murder I think the Broads Authority ought taken a sterner line a make a strong complaint on this matter as One Boat still has got Engine well that's a very good excuse I think upon over staying that mooring with Shore power .

There are 2 posts which will serve 6 boats, while I know some will always abuse the system I have never failed to moor there when I want, some will always abuse the system including other private owners not livaboard and some hirers, there are a couple of notables there but the majority are decent people with a different life style.

Fred

[MauriceMynah]

There are several issues here and shoddy 'law writing' is as much to blame as anything. Example.. 'no return within 24 hours'... I hire a boat from Richardsons. I take the boat over at 15:00 hrs and motor to Sutton staithe. The previous hirers left that mooring at 08:00 that morning. Am I allowed to moor there?

 The natural reply would be 'of course you are' but the rules say I can't.  If the rules are written properly they would be long and complex, and nobody would read them. 

What this boils down to is that it is hoped that the spirit of the law is obeyed. That is not something that can be relied on.

 

 

[CambridgeCabby]

I have edited out a term which may be considered offensive by some from the above threads , please can we refrain from further usage .

[MauriceMynah]

Thank you Simon, yes it was rather.

[Ray]

Not getting a suitable mooring at your intended destination is part and parcel of Broads cruising surely, that's why we advise newcomers to always have a plan B and a Frey Bentos pie handy.

It can of course be frustrating but it's not really fair to pick one kind of boater for complaint, it could be, hirer, owner or constant cruiser... it makes no difference really.

[Broads01]

3 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:

There are several issues here and shoddy 'law writing' is as much to blame as anything. Example.. 'no return within 24 hours'... I hire a boat from Richardsons. I take the boat over at 15:00 hrs and motor to Sutton staithe. The previous hirers left that mooring at 08:00 that morning. Am I allowed to moor there?

 The natural reply would be 'of course you are' but the rules say I can't.  If the rules are written properly they would be long and complex, and nobody would read them. 

What this boils down to is that it is hoped that the spirit of the law is obeyed. That is not something that can be relied on.

 

 

Interesting issue. So the "no return" rule applies to the boat rather than the people occupying it? I guess in practice the BA must know the scenario you describe can exist and in the circumstances would allow the new hirers to stay. 

[FlyingFortress]

This is a very difficult subject to address.

As a contributor to the BA tolls I know what I would like to do.

As one who has been head hunted to a senior position at BA and I decided against it. It is a very hard problem to address as I can see both sides of the argument.

My considered opinion is that I would like to see continuous cruising to not be an option on The Broads. It works on The Canal system but why should we continue it on our 125 miles of waterways as opposed to the 3000 miles of canals.

I would like to see ALL Boats on the Broads have registered permanent mooring.

There are some places on the Broads that provide residential mooring so can these places not provide a permanent mooring for fellow Liveaboards . These folk do after all give the impression of community spirit.🤫

Of course this will increase the amount of liveabaord moorings on the Broads. Is this desirable to us the average Tollpayer considering the state of some liveabaord communities already in existence. Yes controversial I know but I am only stating the blooming obvious to anyone with eyes open.

Then there will always be the disrepute ones who do just like they feel and to hell with what anyone else thinks or wants and there is little apart from aggressive enforcement that is an option.

Then there is a welfare issue.

Who would see anyone who is truly homeless but is warm and cosy tied up to Sutton Staithe plugged into the electric and with mains water on tap get made homeless and passed on to our already stretched social services.

So a complex subject.

I am thoroughly glad I didn't accept the position with BA, not because of this issue, but it would have been an issue that would have landed on my plate.

For the record a good few years ago when on an Autumn cruise my heating failed and I did find it extremely irritating that when I turned up at two public moorings that I knew had electric posts they were all hogged by Liveaboards or otherwise non toll payers. Some even shut down with winter covers on.

 

[Vaughan]

Having read through some of the comments here I am left with the impression that a lot of opinions come down to one set of initials :

NIMBY.

If you cruise on holiday in your boat and spend several nights aboard on public moorings then you are a live-aboard.  All the rest is just a matter of "scale" and you have no more priority on a BA mooring other than first come, first served.

If all boats registered had to have a mooring there would be no more short visit toll income to the BA and no more visiting boats from other waterways - or countries.

The Midlands and Thames canal system is different as there is a continuous public towpath and all land at the canal side is owned by the canal authority.  Said authority in that case, obviously has a rather more practical and reasonable approach to the problem, than the BA.

The real problem, which gets worse every year, is mooring availability.  No more wild moorings as landowners have learned how to fleece people (and so have pubs) and no-where near enough public moorings to redress the balance.  And, of course, hardly any boatyards left.

5 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

I am thoroughly glad I didn't accept the position with BA, not because of this issue, but it would have been an issue that would have landed on my plate.

And I trust you would have handled it a great deal better than the utterly disgraceful attitude of the BA planning department over residential moorings on Thorpe Island, where deliberate persecution of the (paying) occupants of Jenners Basin over 10 years, resulted in them being evicted out onto the waterways to try and find somewhere else.  While the owner of the mooring basin (with exclusive planning permission for moorings) was left with no option but to sell up to pay his legal fees.  I also assume you would have objected to the then Chair of the BA who referred to them in public meeting as "Feral people living in a shanty town".

As the BA have long decided to resist residential mooring on the Broads (including holiday houseboats) and have viciously pursued anyone who tries it, it is really not very surprising that "continuous cruisers" have no choice but to shuffle around whatever public moorings they can find.

Neither we, nor the authorities, have the right to view them as an underclass.

[Ray]

8 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

Neither we, nor the authorities, have the right to view them as an underclass

Very well said Vaughn - a principle that if applied more widely would make the world a better place.

[Vaughan]

I can also say, in my experience, that the northern Broads are just as overcrowded now as they were in the 60s. The difference is in the infrastructure (lack of boatyards) and the reversed proportion of hire boats to private boats. There were 3000 hire boats in the 60s and now they say about 700 (depending who is counting) but now they say there are 3000 private boats - all looking for overnight moorings!

I also feel it is a bit sad that we are having this debate at the beginning of December and would like to take this opportunity to wish all those living aboard in this Festive Season of Goodwill - a very happy and peaceful Christmas!

[Gracie]

Labeling folk with a different life style or calling them names should not be allowed, thankfully this forum doesn't tolerate it.  I'd like to wish them well too and also to stay warm and safe over the coming months

A very happy Christmas from me to all of you living aboard   Been itching to say  happy Christmas, well it is December  x

[grendel]

9 hours ago, Broads01 said:

Interesting issue. So the "no return" rule applies to the boat rather than the people occupying it? I guess in practice the BA must know the scenario you describe can exist and in the circumstances would allow the new hirers to stay. 

I seem to recall there have been issues at thorpe green around this subject, not BA owned or run, but local council.

[rightsaidfred]

How sad that this is even a topic of conversation, I don't consider myself lucky to have the life I have as we worked hard for it and we now enjoy the fruits of those labours, I do however consider myself fortunate to have had the good health and abilities to have achieved that.

There are good and bad in all sectors of society, there are those that contribute more than they can afford, there are those that don't even though they can afford more and then there is the majority who do their bit.

The Broads belong to everyone and no one should be excluded just because they don't fit into someones idea of the norm, I accept that everyone should play by the rules but in life there will always be some that dont and that is where the authorities come in, sadly in many cases with all agencies the powers are limited and there will always be a difference between perceived justice and the penalties handed down to some who break the rules, there will also be some who for whatever reason it is not worth prosecuting given there ability to pay.

While I understand the feelings of those of us who play by the rules and can get annoyed myself at times a little bit of tolerance goes a long way when we don't know the full circumstances and maybe in some cases but for the grace of God go I.

Fred 

  

[FlyingFortress]

So I know this is going to be controversial but let's see if it has any legs 

I am going to ask a few questions about Liveaboards on the Broads.

Before I do go down this controversial route let's just put this one up and see if I get moderated.

[ExSurveyor]

8 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

Before I do go down this controversial route let's just put this one up and see if I get moderated.

As long as you stay within the ToS why would you be moderated.