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Open Wallet Surgery (maybe)


Mouldy

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16 minutes ago, Meantime said:

So I believe that double mooring is allowed at Reedham, but only with permission from the boat owner. Do you have to pay £20 if you refuse to allow another paying boat to moor alongside you?

As far as the increase in toll is concerned I can accept that as long as it goes to navigation upkeep, regarding Reedham and Ranworth charges are concerned that may not be a done deal, Reedham got overturned before and as far as I am concerned Ranworth is maintained by our tolls, I see a legal challenge here but not sure how this would be organised, be interested to see what local authorities, businesses and boating groups do.

Fred

 

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5 hours ago, rightsaidfred said:

As far as the increase in toll is concerned I can accept that as long as it goes to navigation upkeep, regarding Reedham and Ranworth charges are concerned that may not be a done deal, Reedham got overturned before and as far as I am concerned Ranworth is maintained by our tolls, I see a legal challenge here but not sure how this would be organised, be interested to see what local authorities, businesses and boating groups do.

Fred

 

What boating groups Fred?

It's what I have always described as The Norfolk Business Plan.

 

Income is decreasing due to less people coming to visit so let's put up the prices and squeeze the ones that are here until the pips squeak and maintain our income.

Then wonder why no one comes next year 😉

For heaven's sake it costs enough to hire a boat for your annual holiday without someone putting their hand in your pocket every time you turn around.

Spoke to a chap last year who told me his hire boat was going to cost him £3.5k a week to hire in 2022 so he politely declined. Without the hire fleets our Broads infrastructure will soon nose dive. I mean look how difficult it is to get basic services like pump outs on The Southern Broads.

 

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7 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

For heaven's sake it costs enough to hire a boat for your annual holiday without someone putting their hand in your pocket every time you turn around.

 

All of your post is well said and I agree, although this line is particularly apposite.

In the days when the Broads started to suffer competition from Freddie Laker and the like, we always used to say that a hire boat for 6 people in August may seem expensive in comparison to a charter to Minorca, but at least, once you have hired the boat, you have paid for your whole holiday.  There were no other extras whatever.

You can't say that now, can you?  You have to fork out 10 Quid every time you want to stop for lunch, or go shopping.

The BA say this will bring in an extra 40K.  That's less than half what they spent in legal fees in Jenners Basin.  And how much were architects design fees and admin, for the failed vanity project at Acle Bridge?  And what were the costs and overheads for all those contentious and useless brown National Park signs?  If this is what it's like in a National Park, you can keep it!

And where are the rest of you, since yesterday?  Are there no other comments, about having the most popular and probably oldest free public mooring, taken out from under your noses?  My father and Jim Brooker must be turning in their graves.

And all this from the Navigation Committee, who, on our behalf, voted 9 to 1 for the idea, with one don't know.

Sounds more like turkeys, voting for Christmas.

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it does sound like they are targeting the easy buck, trying to charge for moorings where they already have someone available to go collect the money, what is the legality of being moored if no mooring lines are attached to the shore, ie what if you moored up at Ranworth by mudweight 18" from the quay heading, would that be chargeable, surely the maltsters and the shop should have some say in the matter, as its going to affect their business if nobody wants to moor there, I can see everyone asking for a dinghy and mudweighting so that Ranworth becomes a glorified dinghy dock.

we have seen that they tried to charge at Reedham in the past, and the plan was halted by the local council who own the moorings, can we see this happening this time, or will the BA try and bully the council into submission.

As has been pointed out, there are few enough places on the south to get a pump out and fuel, if they start charging are they going to make these facilities available?

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We’ve only moored a couple off times at Ranworth as we need the  side on (taxi rank ) because of the dog , so only choose out of season to see if its available. We certainly wont even attempt to go there if we have to pay.  How would fee collection work out of season anyway? Would our tolls be paying for a ranger to collect the money for the few boats that come in? 
 

 We have worked our socks off to get a boat and maintain it.  We’ve had a lot of expensive outlay 2022. We can tolerate the increase in tolls this year. We all knew they would increase considerably but the loss of one of our favourite moorings (Barton Staithe) and now the likelihood of everyone having to pay at Ranworth, where does this end? All free moorings will become chargeable? Other moorings will be lost?  The amount of days we are aboard a year, would cost us a huge amount which isnt in our budget. Our contingency fund is for maintenance issues, not additional mooring fees. 
 

Before this thread, I had been thinking of selling the boat and maybe changing it for something with rear access for the dog so we can stern on moor but If this is the way things are going, it will become very likely we may as well sell and take our hard earned cash somewhere else. 

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8 hours ago, FlyingFortress said:

 . . . . . . . . Spoke to a chap last year who told me his hire boat was going to cost him £3.5k a week to hire in 2022 so he politely declined. Without the hire fleets our Broads infrastructure will soon nose dive. I mean look how difficult it is to get basic services like pump outs on The Southern Broads.

Interesting comment about the cost of hiring.  The larger hire yards seem to be pandering to the public’s demand for bigger, more luxurious craft, better appointed, with bigger beds and hotel style accommodation.  With all that luxury, comes additional cost and now the public (who drove the change) are moaning about the cost.

It seems logical to me, that if you are hiring something that cost well in excess of 300k to build, that you’d expect to pay proportionally more than something 15 -20 years old and already earned much of its initial investment back.

Perhaps the biggest issue is us, the general public.  Have we lost sight of what a boating holiday is all about.  There’s no need to ‘rough it,’ but have we set out demands to high?

Like every else, I’m not overly impressed with the BA and their attitude towards the people they are supposed to represent.  I’d read somewhere about the likelihood of a 13% toll increase several months ago, so that wasn’t really a surprise, however introducing mooring charges at Ranworth and Reedham does go against the grain.  Where next - St Benets, Potter,  Stalham Staithe?

Perhaps, if they were seen to fight our corner a bit more, like striving to keep the ‘quiet’ moorings at Potter and Barton Turf open, instead of just saying that the cost was not justifiable, we’d have a little more faith in them.  As it is, they’re seen as just a kwango, looking after their own best uncontrolled interests, without regard for the boating community.

Ive waited a long time to own a boat and I have no intention of selling ours in the near future, but I do wonder how long our beloved Broads will remain open as a boating and holiday destination with this short sighted bunch in charge.

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I have never had a desire to hire a floating, luxury apartment preferring to rough it for a proper Broads experience. Not everyone wants a whirlpool bath etc. It is a worry that the yards are selling off their older style boats in favour of these luxury boats that your average family will not be able to afford x

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I suspect the BA haven't really thought this through properly as usual. Putting aside the legality of charging at those two locations, what makes them any different to the other free BA moorings we already pay for through our toll? The provision of a ranger to help you moor? Now of you don't make use of the rangers help to moor, should you still pay? After all you have already paid once through your toll!

Now let's consider what would happen if you refused to pay. They can hardly untie your ropes and cast you off, that would break one of their own Byelaws. Speaking of which, which Byelaw sets the amount of any penalty or fine they could issue if you refused to pay? Makes me wonder what what happen if you refused to pay at Norwich or Yarmouth.

Does anyone know how many people have actually been successfully prosecuted for over staying a free 24hr mooring? I don't, but I suspect it's not many, if any.

Then you have to consider other similar situations where you can be fined for non payment, car parks and such. They have to display multiple prominent signs with the full terms and conditions that you accept by parking there, including full details of any penalty charges. Are the BA planning on littering those two mooring locations with the requisite signage? Speaking of planning, are they going to put in a planning application to themselves to enable them to put up such signage. All of which has again got me questioning the legality of the charges at Norwich and Yarmouth. I remember seeing the charges sign at both locations, but the full terms and conditions including penalty charges? I don't remember seeing them, so what is the penalty or fine for non payment at these two existing locations?

The ONLY reason they are not charging at other locations is because there is not a ranger based there YET! or the technology doesn't exist to charge and Police such a charge yet! This is the thin end of the wedge and a stand needs to be made.

Sutton Staithe and Hoveton are long enough and busy enough moorings to potentially warrant employing a ranger to help you moor! Neatishead and Gays Staithe are close enough for similar. Be warned!

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2 minutes ago, Meantime said:

the technology doesn't exist to charge and Police such a charge yet!

I dread to think what will happen if ANPR technology can be adapted to read broads registrations on boats. No need for a ranger, simply pay on your phone app or receive a fine through the post.

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1 minute ago, RS2021 said:

I dread to think what will happen if ANPR technology can be adapted to read broads registrations on boats. No need for a ranger, simply pay on your phone app or receive a fine through the post.

Providing they littered all the moorings with the appropriate clearly displayed notices with full terms and conditions, and got planning for them all and the cameras. Signage for car park PCNs is very tightly controlled and has to be complied with. I think charging at the yacht stations and these two new locations would require similar IF they were to try and issue penatlies for non payment.

 

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26 minutes ago, Wussername said:

If you require to stop at Reedham for water only, and many do, will you have to pay?

If so, in view of the limited number of water stops available on the southern waters, does the Navigation Committee consider this mooring fee appropriate?

From what I’ve read, I understand the charge to be for overnight moorings.  I’m guessing that those mooring through the day and leaving before say 16:00 will be able to do so free of charge.

Maybe this will be clarified when it goes to the vote (and predictably accepted) on 20th January.

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27 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

dread to think what will happen if ANPR technology can be adapted to read broads registrations on boats. No need for a ranger, simply pay on your phone app or receive a fine through the post.

If your phone has a signal, on the north rivers.

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9 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

If your phone has a signal, on the north rivers.

and if you have a phone that is capable of running apps. they have to provide an acceptable alternative method of payment (and that has to be noted on the signeage as well ( eg ringo, you can pay  on their website up to midnight on the day you parked.)

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Having skipped through this thread, I can only say I'm glad I'm out of it now. I really missed my boat when I had to give it up, but the way things are going, there'd be no pleasure to be had in the near future, regardless of the extra expense. Kill the goose that lays the golden egg, why don't you, BA?

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On Sunday my daughter went to Epping Forest to ride her mountain bike. The Forest is overseen by a very wealthy Corporation of London. They now charge you to park in their carparks and have put red lines along all the roads in the forest to stop you parking outside of a carpark! The machine was cash only or pay by phone! She didn't have any cash and there wasn't a phone signal ......

I simply don't visit the Forest now....

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11 minutes ago, FlyingFortress said:

While the once again above inflation toll increase will quietly slip through.

I agree and if it were as simple as that I would accept it.

But what else is coming?  They are keen to promote electric boats and "carbon neutral", but how?  My prediction is that they will start with a toll levy on existing diesel boats, as a "pollution charge" rather than making any serious attempt to provide the electric points on moorings to make their "green dream" actually work in practice.

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6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I agree and if it were as simple as that I would accept it.

But what else is coming?  They are keen to promote electric boats and "carbon neutral", but how?  My prediction is that they will start with a toll levy on existing diesel boats, as a "pollution charge" rather than making any serious attempt to provide the electric points on moorings to make their "green dream" actually work in practice.

Probably. 😞

But as they say in the Football world.

You can only play the team in front of you 

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1 hour ago, grendel said:

( eg ringo, you can pay  on their website up to midnight on the day you parked.)

And if you are on a Broads holiday, with no phone signal and your "laptop has no wifi", how do you do that?

Personally, I have no intention to do my boating under the obligation to "download the APP"!  Surely this is the sort of ghastly constriction on our freedom to exist, that we come to the peace of the Broads to get away from? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Meantime said:

I suspect the BA haven't really thought this through properly as usual. Putting aside the legality of charging at those two locations, what makes them any different to the other free BA moorings we already pay for through our toll? The provision of a ranger to help you moor? Now of you don't make use of the rangers help to moor, should you still pay? After all you have already paid once through your toll!

Now let's consider what would happen if you refused to pay. They can hardly untie your ropes and cast you off, that would break one of their own Byelaws. Speaking of which, which Byelaw sets the amount of any penalty or fine they could issue if you refused to pay? Makes me wonder what what happen if you refused to pay at Norwich or Yarmouth.

Does anyone know how many people have actually been successfully prosecuted for over staying a free 24hr mooring? I don't, but I suspect it's not many, if any.

Then you have to consider other similar situations where you can be fined for non payment, car parks and such. They have to display multiple prominent signs with the full terms and conditions that you accept by parking there, including full details of any penalty charges. Are the BA planning on littering those two mooring locations with the requisite signage? Speaking of planning, are they going to put in a planning application to themselves to enable them to put up such signage. All of which has again got me questioning the legality of the charges at Norwich and Yarmouth. I remember seeing the charges sign at both locations, but the full terms and conditions including penalty charges? I don't remember seeing them, so what is the penalty or fine for non payment at these two existing locations?

A brief answer to this is the BA dont have the powers to issue fines or penalty notices and there is no Byelaw to breach it would presumably be a civil matter through the small claims court where charging twice for the same facility could be disputed.

Fred

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3 hours ago, Mouldy said:

Perhaps, if they were seen to fight our corner a bit more, like striving to keep the ‘quiet’ moorings at Potter and Barton Turf open, instead of just saying that the cost was not justifiable, we’d have a little more faith in them.  As it is, they’re seen as just a kwango, looking after their own best uncontrolled interests, without regard for the boating community.

Totally agree Malcolm

I do feel that forums like this are an excellent vehicle for discussion and judging mood and should really consider taking a leaf out of football supporters trusts of which many have now developed a strong identity, that they have now got seats on the board of many of the clubs.

It wasnt always like that and many clubs didnt want anything to do with their respective supporters trust

One such supporters trust is Bolton Wanderers which now has very strong ties with the club and its voice and opinions are heard and shared via the clubs board.

It wasnt always like this and took a lot of drive and determination to make it happen by people on both sides (driven by the trust initially) who in effect where just a forum for people with a passion to see the club come out of its troubles and forge greater links with the people who use its facilities and were extremely critical of the club and its activities.

I do see parallels with such organisations as BA and believe over time groups like NBN could in fact have a greater say but it would take a lot of work and movement on both sides to make strides on that particular topic and the right people to make it happen.

Just a thought!!!

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