SELF INFLATING LIFE JACKETS.

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

Hi all, i`ve been reliably informed that several of the hire yards are contemplating (or have already decided to) issue self inflating life jackets instead of the more traditional "bouyancy aid" type jacket. I have also heard that proposals have been made to whoever is in charge of Gt Yarmouth yacht station, to install some sort of secure storage of bouyancy aids, so that when people get off their boats to go to town, they can safely lock them away so they won`t have the hassle of carrying them everywhere. Hopefully this will encourage people, especially the less experienced, to wear their life jackets/bouyancy aids whenever they`re on deck, even when moored up. A good idea me thinks. Has anybody else heard anything of the same?.

[Palmtree]

Hi,

Looking for some new Life jackets, I noticed these had a inflation indicator.

http://www.suffolk-sailing.co.uk/acatal ... ckets.html

Handy to check if thay have been used and re-packed.

Ian

[Guest]

Self inflating lifejackets for hire yards and onshore storage has come up in the BA Nav Com minutes quite a few times now, mostly in the "Action Points" section:

eg "Life Jacket storage – A group had been established and had had their first meeting. Initial discussions were primarily to look at ways of getting people to wear life jackets before the issue of storage was examined."

from http://www.broads-authority.gov.uk/auth ... /2011.html

The latest meeting was on Jan 24th, but the minutes for that haven't been published yet.

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

When i was a lot younger, i never used to wear them wherever i was on the broads, north or south. Then one day i slipped while getting on or off the boat, and it started to make me think. Then, when Karen came on the broads with me for the first time 5 years ago, i thought about what she would do if i fell in, which finally convinced me to wear them. Having said that, i don`t usually wear them on the top end of the North rivers, but always wear them if below 3 rivers junction on the bure, or on the southern rivers. If they DO supply the self inflating type, i think now i`l wear them all the time, especially now i`m getting older, and my right ankle is getting weaker.

[Stranger]

in fact we thought the self inflating type were best and we bought some last year from compass online and recieved them good friday last year its not the falling in but the getting out most boats ar difficult to get back into without a platform or ladder even the ladders are hard work but if you knock yourself out the auto inflate keeps you till a rescue can be done

[Guest]

There's no denying that the self-inflating type are for less obtrusive and far more convenient, so are much more likely to be worn than the bright orange foam monstrosities, (and make the wearer feel much less of a berk whilst wearing one.)

I think it was Clive though, that mentioned the significant practical problems that hire yards would face when they issued them. As a professional commercial service, they have to run an infallible system of loaning them out to thousands of different hirers, with an average turnaround of just a week.

The self inflating types are far more sophisticated and susceptible to misuse, (intentional or accidental), than the orange Mr Blobby types, so any one with a professional liability has to be absolutely sure that they are safe dozens of times per year, rather than the privately owned once a year service.

[MY littleboat]

I think that the introduction of the less obtrusive vests, where possible, is an excellent idea and one that I have been keen to see for sometime. Last year was an extremely bad year for boat safety on the Broads and i hope that this year doesn't follow the same pattern. If just a small percentage more people wear jackets because they are less cumbersome, then it will be a start, that gives a percentage that education can be built upon.

I am sure many people would see 'choice' a better option than 'enforcement', but if the Broads continue to suffer accidents involving loss of life through drowning, or as a contributing factor, no amount of committee meetings nor publicity will prevent both the insurers and the HSE taking an active look at the hire businesses.

As previously Clive, and Stowy mentions above also, the cost is far increased as the onus is on the hire yard then to provide serviceable equipment, but some companies have made that switch and they will and must be looked at carefully, if only to do some form of statistical research to find out whether the less-obtrusive equipment really does get worn more often than the traditional equipment.

[MY littleboat]

Hi,

Looking for some new Life jackets, I noticed these had a inflation indicator.

http://www.suffolk-sailing.co.uk/acatal ... ckets.html

Handy to check if thay have been used and re-packed.

Ian

Ref new jackets Ian. I remember a rather good post by either David or Perry not so long ago, but cannot find it. It gave a very good idea of what to look for in a jacket, regarding use / bouyancy etc

[senator]

Can see an initial capital cost, as the only way that these can sensibly be checked is to unfold them, inflate them and weigh the cylinders.

This would seem a big task on turn round day so to achieve it they would need twice the amount so that checked ones could be issued to customers going out leaving all week to get the returned ones checked and ready for the following week.

Regardless of safety there are a high number of customers who would choose not to tell the yard on their return that they had accidentally pulled the cord after a few beers and then puncturing the bladder while trying to get it back into the casing while still inflated, for fearing of a financial charge.

Having said that the cost of autos is no longer prohibitive even to a normal leisure boater so I would guess a yard placing a large order would pay substantially less and pennys for the cylinders if the were buying in bulk.

[brandenjg]

I've got a self inflate and a normal (foam) jacket and personally i prefer the foam one. Mainly because i don't have to worry about the chance that it might not go off. Imagine if someone hires a boat and falls in with a self inflate jacket on and it doesn't fire/inflate and they drown. Grim but it could happen and it would likely result in the yard being sued.

[teadaemon]

With reference to the casualties last year (which was particularly bad, IIRC four fatalities compared to an average of 1 per year), at least two were private boaters not hirers. In the case of the one I know of who was definitely a hirer, they'd fallen in the day before (whilst not wearing the supplied lifejacket), and despite being asked repeatedly to wear one by the other people on board, they continued to work on deck without wearing a lifejacket.

From an insurer's point of view, providing the supplied personal flotation conforms to current regulations and is fitted properly in the yard, and using it is mentioned in the handover briefing and the skipper's manual, then I can't see them having a problem, as I can't see how somebody would be able to make a successful claim against them. Indeed, the provision of foam filled buoyancy aids that are almost 100% effective when worn correctly is likely to be looked upon favourably by an insurer when the alternative is a gas-inflated lifejacket that needs care and regular servicing if it's to perform it's intended function when required.

If somebody chooses to ignore what they've been told and not wear the personal flotation device provided to them, then the responsibility for that lies with themselves and the skipper, possibly also with the hirer (although that's a stretch). It certainly does not lie with the yard.

[senator]

True but the issue here is.not yard liability but how do you get people to wear them.

If they have auto jackets that are far more comfortable then far more are likely to wear them.

If a bs or en certified jacket is issued then the chances of it not going off are remote ad long as it has been properly checked so I can't see a problem with insurance.

The only issue I can see is that unlike the foam jackets, once they have been activated they are useless until re armed, could leave a situation where no life jacket was available.

[Guest]

the only way that these can sensibly be checked is to unfold them, inflate them and weigh the cylinders.

Regardless of safety there are a high number of customers who would choose not to tell the yard on their return that they had accidentally pulled the cord after a few beers and then puncturing the bladder while trying to get it back into the casing while still inflated, for fearing of a financial charge.

Imagine if someone hires a boat and falls in with a self inflate jacket on and it doesn't fire/inflate and they drown. Grim but it could happen and it would likely result in the yard being sued.

Indeed, the provision of foam filled buoyancy aids that are almost 100% effective when worn correctly is likely to be looked upon favourably by an insurer when the alternative is a gas-inflated lifejacket that needs care and regular servicing if it's to perform it's intended function when required.

The only issue I can see is that unlike the foam jackets, once they have been activated they are useless until re armed, could leave a situation where no life jacket was available.

All very pertinent comments, and the scenario I was trying to envisage.

A self-inflating lifejacket is about as useful as a chocolate teapot if it doesn't inflate when suddenly required to. It gives the wearer a sense of security for non-swimmers, and even the "old salts" usually put one on in potentially dangerous waters where they might not normally wear one.

Just imagine falling in to a swirling current and not have the damn thing inflate. In their normal state they actually have a fair amount of negative buoyancy, so would make it even more difficult to float, and very firmly belted on. Yes, the chances of one not inflating are very slim, but is still very real danger in a hire situation, as outlined by Senator. The gas cartridge may weigh "full", but there could be a small puncture in the very thin bladder. The full service is to manually inflate the jacket as well as test/change the cylinder, but if that's done every week instead of once a year, how long would the things last ?

BrandenG's "I've got a self inflate and a normal (foam) jacket and personally i prefer the foam one. Mainly because i don't have to worry about the chance that it might not go off." is exactly how I feel when in waters that a 50N buoyancy aid would suffice, you can be absolutely certain that it will work. I always carry 4 auto 150N jackets aboard, but usually prefer my simple 50N waistcoat style, especially if going in the dinghy or canoe.

I realise it's only suitable for calm waters, and won't support an unconscious wearer's head clear of the water, but it's absolutely foolproof, and is just as unobtrusive to wear as an auto-inflate. Consequently it's become "normal casual attire", which is the crucial point of the exercise.

If hire yards were to offer this sort of thing, instead of the vivid orange "woman and children first" lifejackets, then there'd be a much better chance of them being worn, and no additional servicing costs.....

[senator]

Agree in buoyancy aids being virtually fool proof (never underestimate the ingenuity of fools) and except that in most cases they would be sufficient but fact remains that they are not a life jacket. Not sure of the laws but I would imagine that the yards have to provide a life jacket to the relevant EN standard, so we would then be back to liability.

[Guest]

Not sure of the laws but I would imagine that the yards have to provide a life jacket to the relevant EN standard, so we would then be back to liability.

I think you're quite right, unfortunately.

50N buoyancy aids probably would be below the official standards for hire craft.

It's a shame though, any buoyancy aid/lifejacket is undoubtedly better than none, and far more people would be likely to wear something that was designed for everyday use in case of an emergency, rather than the current bulky orange jobbies that look more like something that would only be required to be worn after an "abandon ship" call.

How many people would have been saved already from drowning on the Broads if the standard design were less uncomfortable and "unflattering" ??

[senator]

It's a shame though, any buoyancy aid/lifejacket is undoubtedly better than none, and far more people would be likely to wear something that was designed for everyday use in case of an emergency, rather than the current bulky orange jobbies that look more like something that would only be required to be worn after an "abandon ship" call.

Hence the original call for self inflating life jackets. The fail rate is minuscule as long as they are properly looked after.

[Guest]

Hence the original call for self inflating life jackets. The fail rate is minuscule as long as they are properly looked after.

"The fail rate is minuscule as long as they are properly looked after." but would it still be minuscule in a weekly hire situation ? Has the ever been attempted on the scale of Richardsons and Herbert Woods ?

Also, the problem with the "fail" situation is someone, possibly a non-swimmer, with a 3 kg weight firmly strapped on to them....

[senator]

But if the chance of someone wearing it increases then the chances are they will save lives even if 1 time in 1000 it makes things worse.

There are plenty of story's about how seatbelts kill people in cars and even plenty of documented evidence of how foam life jackets have resulted in drowning due to them pinning someone against the underside of something.

All you can do is to try and improve safety overall.

[teadaemon]

50N buoyancy aids are what we provide and are perfectly acceptable for use on inland waterways.

As Strowager has mentioned, the newer ones are considerably better fitting and less bulky that they were in the past, and I'd suspect that most yards would have no problem moving over to them as they replace their older models.

All of the hirers I've seen today have been wearing them, but that's probably because in this weather they provide a fair amount of extra insulation. I have to admit, I'm a little surprised that I had to do three dayboat handovers today, but they all claim to have had a good time out on the river.

[Guest]

hiya

if anyone needs a new auto inflation jacket I have a really good deal

on KRU jackets, probably the most comfortable jacket in the world.

Rich

[MY littleboat]

50N buoyancy aids are what we provide and are perfectly acceptable for use on inland waterways.

The worrying thing about this statement is that a 50N bouyancy aid is not suitable for anyone under stone 4 lb or 40 Kg (From my RYA literature) as this presents a real risk to the wearer, and likewise will only provide bouyancy for someone up to just over 11 stone or 70Kg! It certainly wouldn't be suitable for someone heavier.

Teadeamon - you also mention From an insurer's point of view, providing the supplied personal flotation conforms to current regulations and is fitted properly in the yard

Well supplying someone outside of those weight categories a 50N bouyancy aid is not fitted properly. I have spent alot of time windsurfing in recent years and the centres where I go, typically Alton Water, run alot of starter courses and for the very reason stated above keep bouyancy aids from 35N to 70N - Anything bigger required, then they dont have a board suitable!

[teadaemon]

The worrying thing about this statement is that a 50N bouyancy aid is not suitable for anyone under stone 4 lb or 40 Kg (From my RYA literature) as this presents a real risk to the wearer, and likewise will only provide bouyancy for someone up to just over 11 stone or 70Kg! It certainly wouldn't be suitable for someone heavier.

Well we certainly have smaller buoyancy aids for children and babies, and larger ones suitable for people over 70kg, I'm not certain of exactly how much buoyancy they provide, but they comply with all of the relevant legislation and regulations. You seem to forget that the people who hire out boats do so for a living, and therefore are likely to know what the hell they're doing. If we were inspected by the Broads Authority and they found we were providing unsuitable personal flotation devices, you can be pretty certain that we would have our hire boat licences suspended until such time as we had the right equipment.

[MY littleboat]

Just read the above post - missed out the 6!!

50N suitable from 6stone 4lb!!

[MY littleboat]

Well we certainly have smaller buoyancy aids for children and babies, and larger ones suitable for people over 70kg, I'm not certain of exactly how much buoyancy they provide, but they comply with all of the relevant legislation and regulations. You seem to forget that the people who hire out boats do so for a living, and therefore are likely to know what the hell they're doing. If we were inspected by the Broads Authority and they found we were providing unsuitable personal flotation devices, you can be pretty certain that we would have our hire boat licences suspended until such time as we had the right equipment.

Well that isnt what you said originally, and I'm sorry you believe that your ivory tower world would not be shattered if deaths continue - I can email you a lovely report from BW that is currently in consideration making the wearing of bouyancy mandatory for all users of craft from 'holiday' companies. Guess who generated the report - the Health and Safety Executive!!

And also, if you are going to drop the conversation down to patronising people, I'm afraid you are just demonstrating that you have ran out of argument.

The OP bought up an extremely good topic, one that has been discussed before, and the points I and others have made are that some form of research/study needs to be done. the fact is many hirers don't wear jackets as do many private owners not, but if a private owner dies, a company such as the one you work for or represent, aren't going to end up in litigation.. The world has changed, and will continue to do so, but dont make blanket statements, then go back on them, then get ar**y when you are picked up for it!!

[Guest]

The worrying thing about this statement is that a 50N bouyancy aid is not suitable for anyone under stone 4 lb or 40 Kg (From my RYA literature) as this presents a real risk to the wearer, and likewise will only provide bouyancy for someone up to just over 11 stone or 70Kg! It certainly wouldn't be suitable for someone heavier

I didn't know about the 40kg lower limit, but I'm a bit confused with the 70kg upper limit ??

I've attached a photo of the label on my Helly Hansen XL, (I'm twice the man I used to be ), and it clearly shows "50N" and "90+kg", and even has the old money conversion to "14stone 2lbs plus".