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SELF INFLATING LIFE JACKETS.


Guest DAYTONA-BILL

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Well that isnt what you said originally, and I'm sorry you believe that your ivory tower world would not be shattered if deaths continue - I can email you a lovely report from BW that is currently in consideration making the wearing of bouyancy mandatory for all users of craft from 'holiday' companies. Guess who generated the report - the Health and Safety Executive!!

And also, if you are going to drop the conversation down to patronising people, I'm afraid you are just demonstrating that you have ran out of argument.

The OP bought up an extremely good topic, one that has been discussed before, and the points I and others have made are that some form of research/study needs to be done. the fact is many hirers don't wear jackets as do many private owners not, but if a private owner dies, a company such as the one you work for or represent, aren't going to end up in litigation.. The world has changed, and will continue to do so, but dont make blanket statements, then go back on them, then get ar**y when you are picked up for it!! :grin:

Is that report from BW available online, and if so, do you have a link to it? also do you have a link for that information from the RYA, as I'd like to take a look at it as it would appear to differ from a lot of the other information I've read on the subject.

Yes this is a topic that keeps being brought up, and people keep making the same points (sometimes accurate, sometimes not), but we never actually get anywhere.

As things stand, the yards already provide perfectly adequate personal flotation devices to hirers, and tell them that they need to wear them. If it became a legal requirement for them to wear them, we'd have no problem telling them that, and no problem refusing to let them out of the yard unless they're wearing them, but short of offering only skippered hire, fitting CCTV to the boat and monitoring it 24/7, or fitting the lifejacket in the yard and padlocking it in place, there's no way we can force people to wear anything when they're out on the rivers. Even if the yards provided self-inflating lifejackets then use would not rise magically to 100% (it might go up a bit, but personally I'd doubt that the increase in use would be significant).

It may sound fairly obvious, but we don't actually want our customers to fall overboard and die, it's bad for repeat bookings. ;) I'd suggest that all yards do their best to get customers to wear their lifejackets, and increasing numbers of them are doing so, based on what I've seen over the last couple of days when I've been back at work. At the end of the day though, we're not childminders, we're hiring out boats to adults, who need to take some responsibility for their own choices and actions, and those of their party members.

I'm pretty sure I've said it before, but if I could make one change to the Hire Boat Code to reduce the (very small) number of deaths by drowning amongst hirers, it would not be to require the provision of self inflating lifejackets, it would be to beef up the existing (very loosely defined) requirements for a means of reboarding the vessel to include a proper boarding ladder, preferably permanently fitted and capable of being deployed by somebody already in the water. The provision of a powerful torch or spotlight capable of illumination all around the vessel would come a close second. Lifejackets certainly have their place, but they're not a magical suit of protection from drowning, and I think the current preoccupation with them is preventing people from seeing the wider picture as regards safety on boats.

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Firstly the 50N limits were taken from my WIndsufring Level 1 literature that dates from 2002, I will scan it over the weekend and post it up. It may be that it is a generalisation or it may be that it is the limit which keeps you afloat safely (Remember a bouyancy aid is simply that - an aid and NOT a life jacket) As for the HH jacket saying 90Kg, I think it's because when HH say 90 Kg they mean 90Kg, and when mr hongyeng industries, rebadged says 90 Kg it probably means after getting wet for a few minutes it is much less so the windsurfing stuff is possibly taking that into account. In my book it says 60N for that weight!!! I am also confused and will happily accept that the word of the book isn't gospel and probably now only a guide.

Secondly, the HSE report, I will enquire as to whether I can make it public as it was supplied to me in response to a direct qustion to the HSE on a closely related subject and only a small part refers to the BW matter, if so I will happily email it to you - itsa approx 40Mb .pdf file - please PM me your email address.

Lastly

it would be to beef up the existing (very loosely defined) requirements for a means of reboarding the vessel to include a proper boarding ladder, preferably permanently fitted and capable of being deployed by somebody already in the water. The provision of a powerful torch or spotlight capable of illumination all around the vessel would come a close second.

I 100% agree and added to that, ensure they have an outside accessible life saving device such as a throw line/doughnut/ring, rather than something inside in a cupboard!

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Thanks for posting the Crewsaver document, I've printed it as a "keeper". Interestingly though, I see they make no reference to the 50N only being suitable up to a certain body weight.

I had a google around for anything about 50N and max body weight, and found some interesting comments by the RYA here:

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssa ... yancy.aspx

I've also found references in canoing sites where "heavy people" (like me) have asked if 50N is enough. The consensus seems to be that although some people go to 70N for white water, 50N is "perfectly adequate" with no maximum weight caveats.

We need to remember that a 15 stone person isn't twice as heavy in water as an 8 stone person, they can in fact, weigh almost the same in water, since body fat has positive buoyancy whereas bones and muscle do not., I remember seeing something on TV once where a fat person floated, whilst a skinny person sank, it would appear that being a bit overweight does have some advantages !

The most significant paragraph in that RYA document is

"In general terms, Level 50 is a buoyancy aid designed for when help is close at hand, whereas Level 150 is a general purpose lifejacket used for offshore cruising and motor boating."

Although it's somewhat contradictory by the strange global "motor boating" caveat, for me the crucial factor is the word "offshore" for the 150N, and "help close at hand" for the 50N.

I guess Breydon could occasionally present almost "offshore" conditions, but the majority of the Broads, (especially the narrower and slower Northern Rivers), must surely come into the category "help is close at hand" ?

Many years ago I wondered about the effectiveness of various lifejackets and buoyancy aids that I had, and I was able to test them in a swimming pool, fully clothed, after a BCU training session. I found that a 50N gave ample buoyancy, and easily kept my head above water (admittedly whilst conscious), and has given me great confidence in them ever since.

By contrast, my 150N (inflated by mouth as a test), was very difficult to swim ashore in, though I readily admit I'd prefer that one in any sort of swell.

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For offshore a proper job would be 250 newtons designed to keep you afloat with all your offshore clothing on, and a lot of costal/inshore jackets are now 175 newtons.

The secret to swimming in them is to do it on your back as this is the position they are designed to put you in.

For coastal and offshore a spray hood would also be recommended to allow you to breath when waves are breaking over you.

Yes it is a bit more than you would expect to encounter on the broads but only a life jacket will keep your head out of the water if you are knocked out as you fall.

How often you knock yourself out I couldn't say.

Any bouyancy has got to be a good thing and probably for 90% of incidents a buoyancy aid would do the job.

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Any buoyancy has got to be a good thing and probably for 90% of incidents a buoyancy aid would do the job.

Yes, as MLB said as well, even a "bin bag full of air" is better than nothing !

I quite agree with the full Monty when at Sea, I have the set of four 150N autos, and if I ever went out in the rough stuff I'd seriously consider the 250N.

The modern 50N foam waist-jackets are really comfy and unobtrusive now, even more so than 20 years ago.

Unlike my older Gill, the Crewsaver has no shoulder or side panels, just straps, to avoid getting too hot in the summer. Just the front zip and belt. It's almost as "open" as a gas jacket, so can be worn comfortably in fairly hot weather without getting sweaty, like the older ones that were more of a full padded jacket.

I find it strange that they are often regarded as only being suitable for "watersports", where the risk of capsizing (fully clothed) and ending up in the water is far greater than on a motor cruiser, especially on inland waterways. Canoe hire companies usually only provide 50N jackets to their clients, even the non-swimmers.

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How often you knock yourself out I couldn't say.

Only once if you go over the side at the same time without a LJ Ian.

I do feel with this recurring theme that the old adage you can lead a horse to water ... applies very strongly. Most people know the importance of wearing one, if not then take the time to explain it once, if they still choose not to then just let Darwin do his job.

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I find it strange that they are often regarded as only being suitable for "watersports", where the risk of capsizing (fully clothed) and ending up in the water is far greater than on a motor cruiser, especially on inland waterways. Canoe hire companies usually only provide 50N jackets to their clients, even the non-swimmers.

They are designed for people who are expecting to get wet due to their choice of sport. The people will normally be dressed appropriately for the fact that they are likely to end up in the water and to add to that will normally require a high degree of mobility once in the water to right, roll or climb, as such a LJ would not be a suitable garment. They are also unlikely to be falling from a structure, with ledges, that could be up to 10' above the water.

Not quite the same as granny slipping while throwing the remains of her fish and chips to the seagulls, hitting her head on the way down, before a few stone of water is absorbed into her specially knitted for the holiday wool cardigan, made extra thick because it gets nippy by the water at night.

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Guest DAYTONA-BILL

As the OP of this thread, i first thought it a good idea, but as a result of reading all the replies, i`m now not so sure?. I do like the sound of the bouyancy aids that are less cumbersome, and will seriously be giving these types of bouyancy aids more consideration when Karen and i (hopefully) get our own boat on the broads. For me, this thread has hilighted several valuable thoughts and reasoning, so i`m glad i started it. Thanks for all your thoughts folks, and please carry on this topic of conversation as it`s been very informative. Regards to all ..................... Neil.

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Lots of interesting info and knowledge flying around and to me it goes without saying that the auto inflates are the ones to have. Not are they so easy to wear but they do work! Cannot remember who, questioned whether a busy yard would have time to check them properly EVERY time they went out. The answer to that is of course is no but there are very easy and simple checks you can carry out as you hand a jacket over. It is easy to see if it has been fired but the key is to just check the bottle is screwed in as they can work loose.

I don't think anyone would expect a full service every time that they are used BUT it would be important to be able to show a regular programme of checking. Neither IMHO is it absolutely necessary to put on crutch straps if they are put on right - if you adjust and put on reasonably tightly, in Broads conditions they are more than adequate. However the old buoyancy aid, especially an overlarge one, is impossible to keep on without straps and are just next to useless. However much it cost I just would not send out people with those old jackets on - I know its an expense but to see kids running around feeling safe in a jacket which clearly isn't just sets me into panic mode.I think some yards take this so lightly its beyond belief

I know you cannot make sure people wear them but it should be an integral part of the handover - the issue of proper jackets rather than apologies for them, and instruction on how to fit and wear. I do not believe the issue of old type buoyancy aids meets that criteria, even if they are bright orange!!!

Private owners should also have them on every time you move out onto deck. Do I? No of course not - I just suggest whats needed and do not necessarily follow my advice!!!! cheers

Sadly!!!!

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