Best helm position?

[brandenjg]

Hi everyone.

I have a 3 year plan to save up for my next boat and i've been looking around at all that's on the market. I've whittled it down to the 23-26ft range and a widebeam. The only thing i can't decide on is whether to get a forward, centre or rear helm boat.

My current boat is centre position and all the hire boats i've been on have been forward, so i'm looking for forumite opinions on which of the 3 is best for steering, layout and most importantly how easy they are to moor single handed. Also if anyone has any suggestions of boats. I'll be overnighting alot with friends and family so space is essential P.s my price range is 5-10k ( i only work part time) :-P

Thanks in advance Branden

[C.Ricko]

Hi Branden,

With your price range I would think that a centre cockpit boat would not have aft access, also a aft or centre cockpit would need a canopy, a fwd drive boat the right size would be a Hampton of some sort but out of the price range unless you found a dog or got very lucky!

I would suggest looking for a elysian aft or centre cockpit, the aft version is plentiful and an ok example can be found at your lower price range,

Boats are not worth anywhere near the prices acheived 3 or 4 years ago so dont worry about boats advertised above what you want to pay, just offer what you want, there are plenty of people who just want rid of their boats, try asking marina owners what boats have been taken in lieu of moorings, these are often needed out of the way for a bargain price.

Good luck!

[trambo]

Best helm position?...........................Behind the wheel.

 

For single handed cruising at that size I would have thought aft was best but for space it has to be forward every time.

 

Fred

[ExUserGone]

I've only owned aft cockpit boats but find it fairly easy in most situations to get the stern in enough to step off with both ropes in hand , the middle of the boat always leaves a gap whichever end the wind/tide catches, avoid canopies that need to be climbed through for single handing on tidal water, but theres nothing that can't be re-designed.

[Guest]

I've owned all types of boats over the past 40 years, and I can confidently say that the grass is always greener over the fence !     (whatever type you have, the others will often seem better).

 

As with most things in life, each helm position has a seemingly equal number of plus and minus points, especially on the Broads.

 

Forward control gives the clearest forward view, over a short foredeck, and you can navigate under bridges whilst being fully "closed up" against wind and rain. Reversing is trickier though, and the low down viewpoint can be claustrophobic when hemmed in by tall reeds.

 

Stern control often gives a much poorer forward view, staring over a long tall cabin roof, often brightly lit in the sun. Canopy and screen have to be folded for many bridges, leaving you open to the elements.  Superb rearward visibility though, and a much better feel for the handling and turning of the boat.

 

Centre control is usually the best, giving a good compromise between forward and rearward view, especially when high up. A nice view over the reeds too, noticable at places like Ranworth, when entering the main river from the dyke.

 

My current sports cruiser has a high centre helm position, though it is a stern cockpit boat, quite a good compromise for smallish boats.

[brandenjg]

Thanks for the detailed replies. Looks like theres mixed views about the best position. I can see how a forward position would be best for views and space but they all seem to be fairly shapeless/boxy looking boats. Centre control i find can be hard to moor single handed, mainly because you have to tuck either the front ot rear in, walk along the edge of the boat to whichever end it is to be able to hop on land. This is when mooring between boats.

My mooring is between 2 bridges so a high helm position is definately out of the question, and means restrictions on head height.

There was an elysian on ebay recently buy it now £6000 which looked quite nice so it's now added to my list of boats to look out for in 3 years.

One more question is outboard or inboard for a boat in my size range as i've seen both versions of boats on ebay for varying prices. If inboard is better i imagine i will have to save up a little more.

Thanks everyone

Branden :-D

[MBA Marine]

inboard for me every day of the week, and with a shaft not an outdrive.  petrols are often cheaper to pick up, are often a quieter smooth engine but petrol is harder to get on the broads.

 

Birchwood 22 25 Freeman 22 23 25.  If your up for another do up job you can often find a rough SeaMaster 25 with a BMC15 for the lower end of your budget.  there was a Birchwood 22 fairly local on Gumtree for ages at £400! and the old Ford petrol engine is easy to work on.

[brandenjg]

I have to admit it seems redundant to get an inboard with an outdrive.

Yes i should of mentioned in the first post that i'd prefer an unfinished boat as my favourite part of boating is all the finishing jobs. If it floats has all the cushions and engine runs smooth all the rest can be done by me. Well except for gas and some electrical work :-P

The seamaster is already on my list along with the elysian, a viking, a princess, buckingham 25 and an atlanta 24 so theres certainly a good selection out there.

I find the seamaster name a bit misleading as i can't see the 25 being too safe at sea :-D

Can i ask why you prefer inboards over outboards?

Thanks in advance Branden :-P

[Hockham Admiral]

Inboards are more difficult for the scrotes to nick, Branden!

[Mowjo]

Branden! I believe some Seamasters were designed for river, estuary and inshore use,

but not for rough sea work, My first one was the Cadet25 MkII that came of the River Thames, The Guy I bought it from did regular trips to France in it, I had it around seven years and it used to scare the c**p out of me crossing Breydon let alone the Channel, Even being Petrol with a Stick gearshift, It's still the best boat I've ever owned.

Regards Frank,,

[MBA Marine]

Yes outboards get stolen,

Also as you have found they are hard to keep in a straight line unless you have enough power on and on the broads that sort of speed is not allowed.

Outboards also unless its a nice new four stoke tend to be noisy, unreliable and thirsty.  Outboards and outdrives need protection from the pilot reversing into things and others ramming them. 

[Hockham Admiral]

Outboards also unless its a nice new four stoke tend to be noisy, unreliable and thirsty.

You're talking about my favourite British Seagull, Mark!

[Hockham Admiral]

Actually it did always start and go.... But its noise and thirst were another thing!

[Jim]

Have a look on Boatshed Norfolk Branden.  There was at least one Falcon 22 on there for under £10K recently.  As a Falcon owner, I confess to being a bit biased towards the marque and I'm also happy with a centre helm position which has easy access to the stern.

[Jim]

Yes outboards get stolen,

Also as you have found they are hard to keep in a straight line unless you have enough power on and on the broads that sort of speed is not allowed.

Outboards also unless its a nice new four stoke tend to be noisy, unreliable and thirsty.  Outboards and outdrives need protection from the pilot reversing into things and others ramming them. 

Noisy, unreliable and thirsty?  I thought you were talking about me there Mark

[MBA Marine]

I would never be so rude about a old Seagul. they make a great whisk!

 

Bendans love of fishing means a nice big open cockpit would probably suit him best. however the link below is a great boat ( I do know the boat) with lots of space for a 22'  its over budget but something similar could be found.

 

 http://broadlandyachtbrokers.co.uk/boats/80

 

or: fish of the back or front, sadly has a outdrive but it is a lot of boat for money with accommodation for fishing buddies.

 

  http://broadlandyachtbrokers.co.uk/boats/11

[Guest]

It's funny how certain engine and transmission types generally get negative comments on forums.

 

Opinions are often based on very limited personal bad experiences, which then put the user off that type, before they have had a chance try better condition examples of the same type.

 

Two stroke outboards, outdrives, and inboard petrol engines are prime examples.

 

It's wrong to rule them out completely though, because they can give good service and a good return on investment, especially when on a restricted budget. Yes, if money is no object, then diesel inboard power is the best, but it's therefore the most expensive, and isn't always the best from other points of view, like noise and vibration levels.

 

Petrol inboards are usually decried on three main "disadvantages", safety, running costs, and waterside fuel availability.

 

• Safety should not be an issue now that we have compulsory BSS testing. With bilge blowers, properly installed vented tanks and carb drip trays etc., the additional risk over diesel is minimal.
• Running Costs, now that the huge tax advantage of red diesel has largely gone, petrol is no longer over twice as expensive. At Broads speeds, even large petrol engines like my 4.3 litre 200 hp V6 Volvo engine only consumes around half a gallon per hour. It produces 4 mph at 800 rpm and 6mph at 1200 rpm, where the engine is almost inaudible and vibration free.Because of the stigma against them, inboard petrol boats are much cheaper secondhand than their diesel counterparts.
• Waterside Fuel Availability. Yes, virtually non-existent now, over the whole of the Broads. Another reason why inboard petrol boats sell cheaper here. Not a significant practical problem though, because again, fuel consumption at river speeds is very low compared with coastal use. There are a huge number of petrol outboard cruisers that manage to cruise around the Broads, filling their portable tanks in garages. There's no practical or safety reasons why an inboard petrol engine couldn't be run from a portable 5 gallon tank, with another as a spare.

Outdrives

 

They can be horrendously expensive to repair if neglected (as is often the case unfortunately), but when looked after they offer several big advantages over shaft drive:

• excellent maneuverability forwards and astern, with the thrust being directly vectored with the swiveling steerable propeller.
• Very shallow water capability, with the lifting/tilting facility on most.
• Easy emergency prop clearance and replacement whilst afloat, saving on diver insurance.
• The slow speed "wander" at displacement speed is easily cured with an add on rudder attachment, which also gives steerage way in neutral.
• Ability to house the engine right at the stern, giving quieter cabins and often more accommodation space.

Two Stroke Outboards

 

These are also getting run down a lot now, in favour of four strokes.

 

They should not be ruled out completely in the small sizes though,

 

Up to 10hp, there are still some quiet and economical examples around, and they now posses a new benefit over modern fours strokes,  they're far less attractive to thieves, with all the nice new four strokes around. !!

[Hockham Admiral]

Mark, hi. That Beaves Marine 22 is a cracking little boat, isn't it?

Its airheight at 6ft would be ideal for Branden.

[Hockham Admiral]

What a fascinating article, Stowager and

I entirely agree with your thoughts.

We had a Fairline Holiday 23 as our first boat. She had the 175 bhp 6-cylinder Volvo petrol engine and outdrive. Using 5 gallon steel jerry-cans to refuel we took her from Dartmouth where we bought her, back to Brundall, via the Channel Isles.

And yes, we planed her a lot of the way!

[Guest]

Yes John, the great reduction in red diesel tax advantage has really moved the goalposts for petrol inboard boats.

 

No problem with "Bio Petrol" either !!  

[ExUserGone]

One benefit of outdrives is the ability to lift them in drying harbours, very common on the east coast to sit on the bottom over low water.

Of course one of the downsides is having the weight of engine and outdrive right at the stern makes for very lively trips in lumpy water, Leo has done tail stands far too many times.

[MBA Marine]

http://www.broadlandyachtbrokers.co.uk/boats/16

 

Is this the sort of project you are looking for Brandan? you could buy for £2K work your magic and sell for £6k

[Brian]

Theres Only One .. FLYBRIDGE !

 

 

[Dan]

Hmmm.... whatever is that Brian?!  

 

Dan

[trambo]

 Brochure comment "Will not pass under any Broadland bridge except the A47 viaduct at suitable states of the tide"