raga Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 hi people thanks for the advice. have stripped 90% foam and rotten wood. took my 2 sons and I 1 week. that a mess! yesterday i was filling water tank and flooded the bilge, air vent on tank is same level as overflow. cant believe somebody would do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 Good advice there from John and Andy. I'd emphasize the point about temperature though, and I wouldn't try laying up grp below 10 degrees c. If you carefully follow the instructions, measure and mix accurately, and are surgically clean with the old surfaces being bonded too, it does a really good job. "Tupperware" is much maligned by many boating purists, but it's a great building material for lasting with minimal or zero upkeep. I did my garage flat roof with it last Summer, with a huge £600 DIY kit with 10 gallons of resin and a huge roll of CSM glass mat. It turned out quite well, and should last 30 years or so.... hi strowager. some one suggested, to save money i simply use chopstrand and polyester resin. his reasoning is, well thats how the floor supports were built! how say you? he reckons he could do whole boat for about £200. I costed it at £550 using epoxy and biaxe(?) matting. approx 133 feet of 36mm (2 18mm bonded together) stringers and beams. height ranging from 3in low to 5in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
650xs Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 hi 650xa she is in Bristol and has been here about 20, or more year. hasnt been in the water for about 10yr ahh yer see i,m not just sat in me office on me **** waffling i get about and see alot to thorght it was the one in bristol ....!!!!!! bck there agin soon to find some more boots ................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 It's a real difficult call. Glass in now and risk strengthening a twist or risk a lift into the water and glass there once settled. I wouldn't like to advise on this. Whatever you do, make sure that you can see what's happening. So, if you glass in now, don't put the floors in so when she's splashed, you can check of for any cracking. We're making a new roof for one of our fleet boats currently. The old one was ply and is rotten as a peach in places. Take a look on our facebook page for progress reports: www.FaceBook.com/FreedomCruisers. well floors are gone so hope i made right choice! thanks for the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 You will get differing opinions but if I was doing the job, I would use 3x 600g (2 0z) chop strand mat overlapping the joints with each layer and polyester resin. But its all in the preparation, I would take a grinder with a course sanding disk to the hull to remove any dirt, paint ect, leaving the surface well keyed up, vaccume and then clean with acetone, also slash your ply with a knife (FINGERS!!) where the mat is to me applied. If you are a total novice here you could well get in a very sticky mess so hone your skill on something small, its not difficult to 'mat bash' but looking at many peoples efforts it would seem easy to get wrong, better resin rich than to dry but best if you remove any excess resin (best way is to scrape your fluffy roller on the lip of your resin bucket to remove resin from roller then roll back over the resin to draw off the excess) Good luck and if you dont have enough ventilation your eyes will look like this afterwards! As for the 6 month thing, it cant hurt if you have 6 months, but not a luxury that most would have! thanks WBA. asked questions below about chopstrand, forgetting u had already recommended it! fiberglass dust is blinding me. by the way how i i stop goggles steaming up while grinding fiberglass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 ahh yer see i,m not just sat in me office on me **** waffling i get about and see alot to thorght it was the one in bristol ....!!!!!! bck there agin soon to find some more boots ................... ahh yer see i,m not just sat in me office on me **** waffling i get about and see alot to thorght it was the one in bristol ....!!!!!! bck there agin soon to find some more boots ................... yeah she close to another famous boat SS Great Britain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBA Marine Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 thanks WBA. asked questions below about chopstrand, forgetting u had already recommended it! fiberglass dust is blinding me. by the way how i i stop goggles steaming up while grinding fiberglass! I think it is as you are confusing your W key for a M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 6, 2013 Author Share Posted December 6, 2013 I wonder if the foam was put in later to act as a secondary support for a sagging floor? Stranger things have been done. Any limber holes that are drilled in the bilges must be sealed with something to stop the drain water from entering the wood. You absolutely must properly bond the new flour supports to the hull with GRP. Failure to do this will be a total loss of ridigity which threatens the structure of the vessel. Bonding two bits of 18mm marine ply together to form new bearers is probably the way to do this. Use an epoxy resin for the bonding. yeah not sure myself. or flotation aid? whatever the reason, over time foam had shrunken away from floor, leaving a gap bout 2in. original fiberglass floor was supported on plywood sheets, which must have been already rotting when foam was put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddfellow Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Is that a fibreglass water tank? Make sure this is in good nick. Over time, the gel inside can craze around the base corners which then get water seeping into the mat and the whole lot will weep, but can also be problematic to the fresh water too. If you can get the lid off, check it over properly and replace with stainless tank if in any doubt whist you have easy access to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 Is that a fibreglass water tank? Make sure this is in good nick. Over time, the gel inside can craze around the base corners which then get water seeping into the mat and the whole lot will weep, but can also be problematic to the fresh water too. If you can get the lid off, check it over properly and replace with stainless tank if in any doubt whist you have easy access to it. thanks for advice. I have never noticed damp around water tanks, though they may need to be rebonded to hull? I have noticed yellow staining on corner of diesel tank, could that be weeping? i must check that out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBA Marine Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 thanks for advice. I have never noticed damp around water tanks, though they may need to be rebonded to hull? I have noticed yellow staining on corner of diesel tank, could that be weeping? i must check that out! yellow staining sounds like a spot of corrosion, mild steel fuel tank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 yellow staining sounds like a spot of corrosion, mild steel fuel tank? hi mark no i think its a fiberglass tank. well asumed it was! i will double check it tomorrow. just how much do I need to grind back glass for new stringers/ beams. photo attached. stringer shall be laid on that center line. Is that good enough, or should i actually be able see the fiberglass threads? hope its clear enough for you to see. i have been told that the hull has a flowcoat. but I dont know if a flowcoat was applied to stringer fiberglass aswell? the dark staining on center line is where water had got under stringer/beam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 Get the right tools and safety equipment. Recommend 4 inch fluffy rollers for applying resin (short handle roller frames) and cheap, disposable brushes too. Get a couple of paddle rollers to consolidate the GRP layers and pull the resin through. If you use a brush for this, you will probably end up stippling the mat too much and start pulling it apart which ruins the integrity of it. Buy a 5 litre can of Acetone and have a number of containers to hand (that won't melt) for cleaning tools. Put the paddle rollers in the acetone when you are done with them else the resin will set and the roller will be useless. Get a couple of buckets for resin. Get some disposable overalls, the blue 3M ones are very good. Paper ones are pretty crap. Disposable gloves too. Nitrle are good for resin. Remember, in cold conditions, resin will not go off. You need at least 5 degrees C for it to cure. So, a fan heater for the compartment would be a good idea, or a radiant heater is useful too as this can warm the area rather than the air. You can't be too prepared for this! thanks andy. advice appreciated. i have tried a couple of amall resin jobs and made a bit of a hash of it. so must try harder. I know preparation and patience is the key! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 any suggestion for cutting wood to hull curve?are cardboard templates the best option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBA Marine Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 any suggestion for cutting wood to hull curve?are cardboard templates the best option? Thick cardboard will be fine if you can hold it in place and the bulkhead is not to big. i like to get a sheet of 4mm(ish) hard board (ask your builders merchant its often thrown away it is used for protection for pallets of ply and other sheet material), Rip it down into 2" strips then using a glue gun you can stick pieces together so produce a frame of the exact shape you want, the curve of the hull you can turn the strip flat and it will just follow the curve. as for your pic I can see glass strands where you have ground but thats bout all i can say! if it is flow coated then ideally grind through it but your pic looks more like the last layers of grp had a bit of Gel or pigment added to the resin to give the final laminates a bit of colour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 any suggestion for cutting wood to hull curve?are cardboard templates the best option? Taking patterns for very irregular shapes like bulkheads can be very laborious with templates. The variation of curves and steps and angles can be very tricky. The traditional method, known as "Spilling", uses a pointed stick and a scrap of wood. It's much simpler, and produces a very accurate pattern on the new sheet to be cut with minimal effort. It's usually explained in most old boat building books, like the ones by Percy Blandford. The only explanation I could find online is this Youtube video, where the guy is using it to cut a "bulkhead" in a caravan, but exactly the same principles apply. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L6irGUUKUE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddfellow Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 I would doubt that the fuel tank is GRP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 I've found out why I couldn't find any references to Spilling technique on the web. It's actually spelt with one "L", so the word is "Spiling". There's plenty of very good explanations on the web after all. The simplest seems to be at http://www.diy-wood-boat.com/spiling.html where this web page image was captured from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBA Marine Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Spiling certainly is traditional, it as a technique pre-dates tools like the Jigsaw and the glue gun from the days where wood was cut with a hand saw, plane, spoke shave and chisels, axe! it is very laborious but once your work out what all those marks you have made mean you bound to get a great result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranworthbreeze Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 If you can find the time there is a lot to said for using traditional woodworking methods. Using an hand plane rather than a electric plane gives you a feel of the wood you are using. I always finish my work off by hand, but tend to use the power tools for the earlier work on the timber. Regards Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBA Marine Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 If you can find the time there is a lot to said for using traditional woodworking methods. Using an hand plane rather than a electric plane gives you a feel of the wood you are using. I always finish my work off by hand, but tend to use the power tools for the earlier work on the timber. Regards Alan Alan I think most would do the same, but not much finesse needed to shape ply to a grp hull when it will prefixed in place then bonded in, the area that will be bonded should be slashed with a knife to key the surface for the grp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Spiling certainly is traditional, it as a technique pre-dates tools like the Jigsaw and the glue gun from the days where wood was cut with a hand saw, plane, spoke shave and chisels, axe! it is very laborious but once your work out what all those marks you have made mean you bound to get a great result. Sorry Mark, I have to respectfully disagree with it being "laborious". It's much, much less laborious than trying to cut an accurate template by eye. I've been using the spiling method for 50 years now, on boats, canoes, caravans and even when cutting floor tiles in houses. As long as the marker board is firmly fixed, the spiling points are millimeter accurate, right into any corners. Radii can be easily traced and transferred to the cutting material far more precisely than by cutting templates by eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBA Marine Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Sorry Mark, I have to respectfully disagree with it being "laborious". It's much, much less laborious than trying to cut an accurate template by eye. I've been using the spiling method for 50 years now, on boats, canoes, caravans and even when cutting floor tiles in houses. As long as the marker board is firmly fixed, the spiling points are millimeter accurate, right into any corners. Radii can be easily traced and transferred to the cutting material far more precisely than by cutting templates by eye. To disagree is what makes a good honest debate. What we have is a generational divide you have been Spiling for over 50yrs where as I have not yet been breathing 33yrs! some people of senior years like their ways because thats how they have always done it, I work at times with a old boy who cannot/will not paint with a roller, personally I would never choose a brush for a large area. There is no right and wrong, purely personal choice based primarily on what one was taught and is comfortable with. some would say you cant beet the old ways, some say the old ways are the old ways because they have been surpassed by the new. I choose to make a perfect perimeter pattern with strips of hard board then transfer the shape, I do the same for the likes of a Avonite (or corian) worktop although i transfer my stick pattern to half inch MDF then cut out the template refine it them use it as a router jig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 To disagree is what makes a good honest debate. What we have is a generational divide you have been Spiling for over 50yrs where as I have not yet been breathing 33yrs! some people of senior years like their ways because thats how they have always done it, I work at times with a old boy who cannot/will not paint with a roller, personally I would never choose a brush for a large area. There is no right and wrong, purely personal choice based primarily on what one was taught and is comfortable with. some would say you cant beet the old ways, some say the old ways are the old ways because they have been surpassed by the new. I choose to make a perfect perimeter pattern with strips of hard board then transfer the shape, I do the same for the likes of a Avonite (or corian) worktop although i transfer my stick pattern to half inch MDF then cut out the template refine it them use it as a router jig. I always choose whichever method works best for me Mark, trad or new. I agree with you, the 4" roller was a great invention for painting boats, saving time, making paint go on thinner and further, and helping to keep a wet edge even over large surface areas like boats. I went over to them as soon as they became available ! I somehow persevered and got a GCE in woodwork back in the 1960's, but I much prefer power tools these days, so much easier and quicker to use a router than a rabbet plane. I've never found an electronic gadget that works easier, better, or quicker than spiling though, or I'd have used it instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 thank you all for the advice. I had been trying to find the spiling techniche. I had seen it on youtube but failed to find it again. of course with spiling 2 people would be required for measuements. i also like the scraps and glue method. i suppose the cardboard template way would be the least accuate. but as the stringer would be laid on fillets i wouldnt have to be precise? i thought i had to cover the stringers/beams completely but have realised, originally the fiberglass only went up to near top of wood. as somebody pointed out , if i completely covered wood in fiberglass, then when i came to screw floor in place, the fiberglass would lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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