240v Installation Info and Advice Please

[muzbaz]

 

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I have posted this on NBF but Alas it is broke so I thought I'd give this a go here (now I've found this section :-/ Der! )

 

Gentlemen

Can anyone explain/advise on the kit required to run 240v ring main on a boat for the use of shore power, I know some craft use a geni in the system but that is not something I want to use.

On board are 3 x 12v 135Ah Leisure batteries and 1 x 85Ah lead acid cranking battery.

 

The power required  would be for a low wattage microwave/hairdryer/hair straightners (of which I refuse to use, J) these are only used for short periods and then there will be your usual lower draw things like TV/Midi Hifi/CB radio/phone chargers  etc.

 

Okay, so that is quite easy to do, but if I want to include a charger to top up batteries when connected to shore power and inverter for 240v use on the move are there any suggestions on Brand or types to use or stay away from.

 

Maybe someone has a wiring diagram I could read, my nephew is a qualified sparks and is happy to do the work if I do the research which I have regarding cable/conduit/consumer units etc so if anyone can advise on hardware and correct installation to BSC standard I would appreciate your knowledge

The boat will not be left connected to shore power when we are away from the boat so again some advice on how powerful a solar panel should be to trickle charge the cells, please correct me if I am wrong but I believe for our climate it’s around 7 watts per 100Ah battery to enable quicker charging in the shorter periods of sunshine

 

Regards

Barry

 

I'm loving this forum!!!

[ExSurveyor]

CB radio, Blimey that takes me back a few decades. The antenna used to be huge bolted onto the car. B-)

[mbird]

Hi Barry

 

I put in shore power on my first boat, a 1978 ex-hire craft. I installed a shorepower socket, then ran a cable to a consumer unit, and from there a ring main to sockets throughout the boat. I used armoured cable as I had a supply of the stuff at work, but if you use anything else it needs to be protected where it runs through bulk heads to prevent it chaffing.

 

I put a socket in the engine bay (which was under a bunk in the middle of the boat) and plugged in a Sterling battery charger to this.

 

Later on I added an inverter to the system, which was a 2000W pure sine-wave type (some electronics and microwaves etc do not like the cheaper quasi-sine type). I had to put in a changeover switch so you could select whether the shore-power or the inverter were supplying the mains sockets. I used a manual one, though I believe you can get auto switches that will do this automatically. The inverter was also mounted in the engine bay, but had a remote switch so it was only turned on when needed.

 

Never had a solar panel, so I can't comment on that. Hope it's of some help.

[MBA Marine]

 

 

•  
• Reply
•  
•  

I have posted this on NBF but Alas it is broke so I thought I'd give this a go here (now I've found this section :-/ Der! )

 

Gentlemen

Can anyone explain/advise on the kit required to run 240v ring main on a boat for the use of shore power, I know some craft use a geni in the system but that is not something I want to use.

On board are 3 x 12v 135Ah Leisure batteries and 1 x 85Ah lead acid cranking battery.

 

The power required  would be for a low wattage microwave/hairdryer/hair straightners (of which I refuse to use, J) these are only used for short periods and then there will be your usual lower draw things like TV/Midi Hifi/CB radio/phone chargers  etc.

 

Okay, so that is quite easy to do, but if I want to include a charger to top up batteries when connected to shore power and inverter for 240v use on the move are there any suggestions on Brand or types to use or stay away from.

 

Maybe someone has a wiring diagram I could read, my nephew is a qualified sparks and is happy to do the work if I do the research which I have regarding cable/conduit/consumer units etc so if anyone can advise on hardware and correct installation to BSC standard I would appreciate your knowledge

The boat will not be left connected to shore power when we are away from the boat so again some advice on how powerful a solar panel should be to trickle charge the cells, please correct me if I am wrong but I believe for our climate it’s around 7 watts per 100Ah battery to enable quicker charging in the shorter periods of sunshine

 

Regards

Barry

 

I'm loving this forum!!!

 

Its not difficult, your nephew should have no probs working it out. 

No domestic twin and earth cable, cables in a conduit and install a galvanic isolator. If was to go into two much detail then everyone might do their own I would have less work! 

you should be inundated with info on how to very soon along with pics of peoples systems.

[muzbaz]

Thanks so far guys,

 

I believe the Galvanic Isolater is to be installed close to the power inlet before the consumer unit and the EARTH from Ac and Dc are then to be bonded, it is the way the system is set out that I am curious about, a simple answer for the charging is a mbird set out, plug a quality marine charger into a purpose fitted socket.

As for the inverter, an inverter charger is too much to go wrong and can be very expensive so adding an inverter only is my preferred way, I am keen to know more of a switching system that will give manual or/and automatic changeover when connected to shore or cruising, I assume the switching would go on the 12v feed side???

 

Barry

[MBA Marine]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blue-Sea-8032-AC-Toggle-Source-Selector-120v-AC-30A-White-Switches-8032-/261295039176?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item3cd665e2c8

 

one option, these you can get from aquafax

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROTARY-SWITCH-25-A-3-POLE-PANEL-Selector-CHANGEOVER-3-POSITION-CONTROL-CO253-/271327961234?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item3f2c682092

 

2nd option, you can get anywhere.

 

And never assume  :

[mbird]

The second option is exactly the one I installed.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[muzbaz]

Thanks MBA and mbird,

 

In my searching I have found many American sites really into helping DIYers with their installations and I have found a pretty cool diagram, ok it's for a dual outboard set up but I think we will be able to work with it.

I will attach it for your perusal

 

Inverters: I understand the modified/pure and true sine wave output forms so no questions there,

what I would like to know is how big an inverter do I really need,, it will need to run  microwave/hairdryer/hair straightners etc maybe the odd power tool, not all together you would hope, I know some would say YES,, BIG is GOOD!!! I wa at one point thinking a 2000w unit is needed but I think I only need 1000w continuous 1500w peak,

 

what's your thoughts on this please fellow forumites 

 

Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply and helping me with something I just want to get right

Barry

[MBA Marine]

Thanks MBA and mbird,

 

In my searching I have found many American sites really into helping DIYers with their installations and I have found a pretty cool diagram, ok it's for a dual outboard set up but I think we will be able to work with it.

I will attach it for your perusal

 

Inverters: I understand the modified/pure and true sine wave output forms so no questions there,

what I would like to know is how big an inverter do I really need,, it will need to run  microwave/hairdryer/hair straightners etc maybe the odd power tool, not all together you would hope, I know some would say YES,, BIG is GOOD!!! I wa at one point thinking a 2000w unit is needed but I think I only need 1000w continuous 1500w peak,

 

what's your thoughts on this please fellow forumites 

 

Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply and helping me with something I just want to get right

Barry

I have a 1000w silverline inverter in my vehicle and its its been great for many years now, It will power my heat gun on its low setting (fine for heat shrinking) its draw backs are large tools and vacuum cleaners, I have also fitted many of these in boats and never had a complaint. as they are about £90 its a cheap option, I would go for the cheap option and put in heaver battery supply cables (40mm2- 50mm2) to the inverter then should you find you want to upgrade you can invest in a large unit and the infrastructure is already there to change and you could pop the cheapie on ebay.

 

Immersions are your biggest problem if your having one, if you want your inverter to cope with a immersion then you will need a large inverter, a large battery bank and a very good alternator, if you have immersion but do not want the inverter to run it then you will need to switch it off!  

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Barry,

 

It is down to the rating of the microwave and if you want to run a kettle at the same time.

You can get a lower wattage microwave at say 1000 or 1500 watts but you may have a 2kw unit  and there are not many kettle under 2kw.

 

I would say you need a 2kw inverter minimum and may be better with 3kw but as Mark says you need more batteries and a better alternator or an additional one.

 

Most hirecraft with inverters for use of cooking etc tend to have instructions to run the engines, in my opinion more hire craft should be fitted with shore power hook ups.

 

In your case you need the change over switching for shore power/inverter as already talked about.

 

In the case of Ranworth Breeze we do not have space for an invertor and the additional batteries, so we use 12 volts and shore power.

 

Regards

Alan

[mbird]

We fitted a 2kw inverter and had a small 800w microwave designed for a caravan. It ran ok, but flattened the battery at an alarming rate. In order to ensure we didn't kill the domestic battery bank by over using the inverter we had a dedicated 110ah battery for it, but thus wasn't really enough we quickly found out.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[muzbaz]

I love the sound of a whistling kettle,

 

that's because I can tell a child to "go make the tea!" with a little click of a leccy kettle it is a sound that can get lost,ignored and forgotten relying on that parched feeling to alarm you the tea didn't get made and they've snuck of to bed!!!!  Pesky deck hands.

I will consider what you say Alan and see where the budget will allow me to go at the time, MBA's suggestion of start small/cheap is okay but with delicate things like laptops and microwaves I'm not sure I should go that way.

 

MBA (I can't believe I used the ASSUME word  ) the tip regarding supply cable gauge is a good call, I think I will ensure that is done from day one and again, budget might be the factor of lower wattage for now and upgrade later if it proves to be inefficient, as for an immersion, the boat we have looked at only has a calorifier at present, so again not a problem at the moment. 

One thing I will be looking at closely is the output capability of the alternator to ensure it has the punch for the 3 large leisure cells.

 

As for the switching unit for 'shore' 'of'f 'inverter' I didn't know of a product that did this so am pleased to have been shown those. I am now well into a circuit diagram that is going to suit our needs and am now reading up on the purpose and use of anodes.

 

It feels like this thread is coming to an end,  ,, it's quite sad really but if there's any more for any more then feel free to add. 

 

Thanks for all your info so far guys  

[MBA Marine]

why would your laptop or microwave be harmed by your inverter? what do you think happens? 

 

oh and a calorifier is a boaty hot water tank and may have a immersion.

[muzbaz]

why would your laptop or microwave be harmed by your inverter? what do you think happens? 

 

oh and a calorifier is a boaty hot water tank and may have a immersion.

I read that some appliances required a very smooth Ac supply and that delicate electronics can also suffer and so require a pure sine wave productive inverter, or is that a load of old cods wallop?

[mbird]

Absolutely. I did start off with a cheap quasi-sine wave inverter, but the microwave refused to do anything other than stutter, and the TV had a constant background humming noise. Once I swapped to a better pure-sine wave one, these problems vanished.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Guest]

......I believe the Galvanic Isolator is to be installed close to the power inlet before the consumer unit and the EARTH from Ac and Dc are then to be bonded.......

 

 

The isolator can be installed anywhere convenient between the mains inlet plug and the consumer unit.

 

The vital point is that any stray earth currents can't get back up the incoming shorepower earth wire.

[Guest]

A dedicated shorepower/inverter switching unit is certainly the correct professional  way to use the same 240v wiring and sockets.

 

For anyone with more modest budgets and boats though, there is another way  that still meets all of the BSS requirements and is much cheaper and simpler to do.

 

 

When I fitted my ex-hire boat with a 1000w inverter a few years ago, I just intercepted the incoming shorepower lead between the external input socket and the consumer unit.  I then fitted another standard mains inlet plug and socket with another plug from the inverter's 240v output.

 

To switch from shorepower to inverter was just a matter of changing over the plugs, and at all times both circuits were isolated from each other.  

 

The total cost was about £15,  one bulkhead plug and two line sockets.

 

 

[MauriceMynah]

For some years (about ten) my last boat was kept on chocks in a boatyard car park. I started to use it as a base and just ran an extension lead to it from a metered supply. The boat batteries had a charger connected and for the most part I ran my normal 12 volt system.

I had a shelf with my "in boat entertainment" (TV etc) on this was 240 volts, so I put a socket up. When I was about to reintroduce my boat to the water, I was told that this arrangement was contrary to the BSS but I never really understood why.

Would somebody enlighten me please, using very small words and some pictures I can colour in with my crayons.

[muzbaz]

A dedicated shorepower/inverter switching unit is certainly the correct professional  way to use the same 240v wiring and sockets.

 

For anyone with more modest budgets and boats though, there is another way  that still meets all of the BSS requirements and is much cheaper and simpler to do.

 

 

When I fitted my ex-hire boat with a 1000w inverter a few years ago, I just intercepted the incoming shorepower lead between the external input socket and the consumer unit.  I then fitted another standard mains inlet plug and socket with another plug from the inverter's 240v output.

 

To switch from shorepower to inverter was just a matter of changing over the plugs, and at all times both circuits were isolated from each other.  

 

The total cost was about £15,  one bulkhead plug and two line sockets.

 

I'm grateful for your images Strowager as I'm sure others will be too,,

In the first image are you able to identify what units are what?

It depends on the budget which isn't set yet as to how complex/expensive I will go, safety is obviously paramount, BSS compliance is the next factor.

Your second diagram is appealing, simple and inexpensive the problem I would face is the shore power inlet is likely to be positioned in the aft bulkhead and the batteries are 20-25 feet away, Is the inverter supposed to be as close as possible to the DC supply? If so what would be the best way to introduce the inverter to the system pre consumer unit?

[Guest]

....In the first image are you able to identify what units are what? 

 

...Your second diagram is appealing, simple and inexpensive the problem I would face is the shore power inlet is likely to be positioned in the aft bulkhead and the batteries are 20-25 feet away, Is the inverter supposed to be as close as possible to the DC supply? If so what would be the best way to introduce the inverter to the system pre consumer unit?

 

No problem with the long run to the batteries, just position the inverter unit close to them, and run the 240v output 3 core flex to wherever you want to intercept the shorepower feed between the exterior inlet socket and the consumer unit.

 

You're quite right in understanding that the low voltage inverter feed cables need to be as short as practical, because the high current at 12v would demand even thicker cables if the run was 25ft.

 

The mains output flex at 240v has no such length constraints though, and can easily handle that distance.

 

It's just a question of mounting the new additional blue shorepower plugs and sockets anywhere convenient.

[Guest]

I found a photo of the interior shorepower socket I fitted in my ex hire boat.

 

It was in the wheelhouse, right next to the consumer unit.

 

The shorepower feed is plugged in and the inverter outlet plug is hanging down just out of the picture.

 

To the left is another type of galvanic isolator that I had fitted to that boat.

[MBA Marine]

I'm grateful for your images Strowager as I'm sure others will be too,,

In the first image are you able to identify what units are what?

It depends on the budget which isn't set yet as to how complex/expensive I will go, safety is obviously paramount, BSS compliance is the next factor.

Your second diagram is appealing, simple and inexpensive the problem I would face is the shore power inlet is likely to be positioned in the aft bulkhead and the batteries are 20-25 feet away, Is the inverter supposed to be as close as possible to the DC supply? If so what would be the best way to introduce the inverter to the system pre consumer unit?

If your inverter is miles away from your batteries you will need even larger cables to negate the voltage drop over the distance, then you might want a mortgage to pay for the cable. 

 

The 3 position switch is cheap and effective way to link the two A/C sources.

 

I have used my Silverline inverter for my lap top and mobile phone and nothing has gone belly up yet! florescent strip lights tend not to work with a impure wave.  however you should use a 12v in car style charger for things as this is far more efficient why turn 12v DC into 230V AC to then turn it back to 12v or less DC, crazy when you think it through! same for TV they are mostly low voltage so why not get one thats 12v.

[Oddfellow]

BIG word of warning re 12v televisions.

 

Unless they are designed for use in mobile homes, boats etc, don't do it. However, these things tend to be a lot more expensive than the perfectly acceptable units from major supermarkets which are a very reasonable price.

 

If you have a tv with an external 12v power adapter that connects to the back of the unit with a simple low-voltage jack plug or similar, this TV will be expecting a 12v regulated power supply. That is the job of the external power pack.

 

The 12v circuit that powers your boat's lights, pumps etc is not a regulated supply; for starters a 12v battery is considered to be pretty flat if it's only got 12v in it. A fully charged battery should be around 13.6v and the alternator should be kicking out more than that.

 

Whilst you can get some electronics to regulate the 12v supply on the boat, it's really not an effective solution and could cause other problems too.

 

Haven't read the remainder of this thread, so appologies if already mentioned.

 

It is not permitted to use solid core cables on your boat for running 240v Mains - the vibrations of the boat could cause it to break. Use Multi-core flex (1.5mm blue artic cable is fine for this). To conform and be safe, it should not be run close to 12v cables and certainly not attach to any pipework for support. Ideally, you would run it within its own conduit which should be clearly labelled as 240v Mains using Yellow and Black labels.

 

I have all of the BMET regulations kicking around somewhere from my course on this a couple of years back if anybody needs further advise.

 

One simple point on the shorepower switching (again, sorry if mentioned already). It is vital that you use a BREAK BEFORE MAKE type switch.

 

For automatic switching, Brian Wards provide a very reasonably priced unit that removes the need for a manual switch.

[mjt]

Anyone wanting to run a domestic TV that has a separate 12V regulated power unit might be interested in this unit that I use with mine. It works very well and has a good claimed efficiency, better than an running a mains unit via an inverter because inverters only reach optimum efficiency at or near full load.

[Oddfellow]

A really good tip there, MJT.