Sabre 28 - Cruiser - Project

[JawsOrca]

don't worry he has a few pints most evenings!  At the moment the boat is in a boatyard in gillingham.  Annoyingly though its is only open during daylight hours so the plan is to put the engine in (making use of their crane!) and the motor the boat over to Hoo where we are members of the yacht club (and live) so we can work during the evenings (and the clubhouse!), that will hopefully be sometime in march.  

 

I certainly agree its nicer on the broads. We've had a sailing boat for a number of years and didn't use her that much as there's not much to see at do at queenborough! But I certainly miss the broads, although I've just told my parents that we will be stealing their boat (Alpha firefly type) for two weeks in july!

[JawsOrca]

Day 14.

 

Dave installed the last two structural beams which connect the engine beds to the other other structural beams so its all tied together now. He also cut out the transom for the sterndrive and epoxied the exposed edges.

 

We also had help today so we all managed to get the vetus engine degreased ready for a fresh coast of daffodil yellow tomorrow (yeah thanks vetus.shop.com for letting me know the paint code so I managed to look round and find the paint half price elsewhere!).

 

Dave also managed to remove the gearbox from the vetus and after lots of head scratching it seems simple enough to connect up to the volvo outdrive, although we need to get a connector machined up to connect and intermediate shaft onto the vetus flywheel which shouldn't be too much work.

 

We also managed to get the window frames screwed back onto one of the three windows needing this. So tomorrow we want to paint the vetus (I'll publish some pics tomorrow and put the frames back on two other windows and hopefully cut and frame the roof beams in the cabin. 

 

Dave wants to try and put the vetus engine bearers in tomorrow so then the vetus can be craned in.  It really is annoying being in this yard and having to leave at 4pm, we really need to get the engine in and moved over to hoo where we can work during the week and after dark...

[JawsOrca]

Day 15.

 

Dave got the the yard and 8.30am and set the alarms off (Its meant to open at 8am) but the yard where OK. I stumbled over 9.30am!

 

We managed to paint the vetus engine and it looks very pretty. Dave finished off glassing all the bits in the engine bay (Yes I thought he had finished too). My and Brenda (daves mum) battled on with the window trims. The glass is so irregular it makes for hard work.. 15 mins each screw pretty much. I ordered lots of samples so hopefully after payday we can order the sidelining.  

 

Me and Brenda finally worked on some of the roof beams which will take the headlining (although I was losing my temper with not having the right screws (The glass is out by 5mm in places so some screws bite and some don't

 

We also managed to "win" a vetus swanneck, muffler, waterlock and rubber transom outlet on ebay so all we need now is some hose to complete the exhaust system (we appear to be above the waterline so no airvent although vetus at the LBS suggested a swanneck although we don't think its needed, but it all help reduce the noise.. hopefully it will sound like the sailboat?!!). 

 

Next weekend Dave will get the beds adjusted for the vetus (he says) so the weekend we can hire the crane and put the engine in. I'll carry on with the battening. 

 

[JawsOrca]

Day 16

 

Lovely sunny day today.. felt more like easter than January although apparently its ment to "rain" tomorrow...

 

So Dave made it to the yard again as they were opening and when I arrived (A little later!) he had already got the angle iron engine beds in for the engine. Although I was vital in helping him screw the last one in.. thats my side of the story anyway.  After lunch (lol i got there at 10.30 ish). He put the first coat of paint in the bilge and the engine area walls.. It looks very pretty.

 

I also finished the batterning in the walls after getting decent screws so thats job done.  We also managed to cut and install the roof beams.. Dave started glassing in and thankfully using props to push up it managed to remove a sag (The roof is directly below the dashboard and had a sag) so all looks good.

 

Finally I cleaned up the old steering console and started to fill the holes in the wheelhouse bulkhead (it really is full of holes so will take some time.

 

Picture attached of the engine area and once again you can see he's done a very good job of the engine bearers, beds and other structural timber.

 

Tomorrow we will book the crane for next sunday! So thumper can go in and stay nice and dry! We also hopefully have the all clear to bring over to our yacht club so can do that in a couple of weeks (We just need to plumb all the engine in.. although can't wait to get out this yard as its opening hours are far too restrictive.

[JawsOrca]

Day 17.

 

Ok we wanted day off today as we've been working since December pretty much. But there was a boat jumble on to so we drove through battered kent and sussex countryside to get to the jumble (two roads closed with fallen trees!).  It was OK... we spent a hundred quid on water, fuel tanks and some electrical bits..

 

I just spoken to the boatyard and the crane is pencilled in for 2 weekends time to lift the engine in.. although I'm just picking myself up after hearing the cost (South coast prices!).. I've also emailed a transport company to see if he can bring the boat over for east coast prices!  I'll advise later!

[ranworthbreeze]

Hello Alan,

 

What was the price quoted? and have you looked at other options, block & tackle on a frame etc.

 

Regards

Alan

[JawsOrca]

Hi Alan.

 

They quoted £65! Considering I've never paid anything above £20 for cranes before this seems a bit steep to me!  I googled about and marinas in southampton are charging about the same but this is a DIY yard, but we don't have much choice (The yacht club here doesnt have a crane).  Does this sounds steep for norfolk prices?

 

We did look at making a frame up with scaffolding but by the time we spend money and time sourcing bits its probably better to just use the crane. Plus we would need it to be about 15 feet high to get over the stern and we have the hard top to get under too

 

I just heard back from the transport company and they are quoting £250 to move from this yard to our yacht club (its about 10 mins!) but its a hiab lorry so that includes lift on, transport and lift off, so that sounds fair enough... plus we would probably use him to bring upto norfolk.  I think I'm just tight though and don't like spending anything!!

 

Regards, Alan

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Alan,

 

Being used to Norfolk prices at £65 I would ****** his hand off, our lift in & out for our Winter Service was £285.

 

As you say the it would cost you over £65 just to hire scaffold poles and the block & tackle.

On the day you put in the Engine you had better have some pinch bars, a few rollers and some skates if you can borrow any and the odd  offcut of 4 x 2.

 

Regards

Alan

[JawsOrca]

Hi Alan,

 

Certainly seems I don't have much choice! it's ok I guess it could have been better (although I bet theres VAT to come!). 

 

Thanks for the roller tips, Thankfully dave managed to install the beds as angle iron so it should slide back and forth without too many problems (it is quite a light little thing)  but will certainly put something under it (Hopefully not fingers!), I think/hope its a straight drop in although I have a worrying feeling the hardtop will have to come off (hopefully on purpose!)...

 

Certainly feels quite a productive weekend!

 

Kind regards, Alan

[JawsOrca]

Day 18.

 

Good day! The crane was booked for next weekend but long story.. thumper went into today! 15 min job! all smooth.. no probs! Pics below.. (the pictures are not faked the sky really was blue today! Although it throw it down this evening!).

 

Also today we sold the BMC.. thankfully its gone and we was ok with the price.. one less thing to worry about.

 

Also Dave repaired the crack in the the transom, it will need sanding down and a bit of work (but I can do that on another dry day) I also filled lots of holes in the wheelhouse dashboard.

 

Tomorrow I need to help the crane driver with his boat... more details coming tomorrow.

 

Soo nice to have the engine in the boat though and it looks lost in that space!

[650xs]

well dun boys and i would orf lifted it in me teeth .....................cuzz i can grrrrrrrr........

 

 

 

pay the money and it makes sense ........................

 

 

i charge for a large boat £100.00 for alift so yuo can imagine the lift for the broom 45 was in excess orf £700.00 ..ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm i said with ther hats on too at the yard we got her from ....................

 

 

bite yer tongue and grin and bear it 

#

 

 

nice yellow and it not green ....!!!!!!

 

 

carry on i do read when i can ...........

 

 

 

when yer come to broads i love to help launch her and may be help with the transport too 

 

 

 

nice and easy remember i have lots orf contacts her eto aid mooring etc if yer come 

 

 

always willing to moan ...opppps help........

 

 

regards ............jon 

[JawsOrca]

Jon..! I'm not sure I'd like to watch you put that in with your teeth!  (although we lifted the BMC into a van without too much pain!)

 

Good to know (in a way) we didnt get too over-charged although I bloody hope it dont need to come out when we are up there! (700!)

 

I have sent the guy who took the green engine off us to contact you for a gearbox so hopefully you will get a call.

 

Your yard is one on my list for a mooring as I like wayford bridge and I've been checking your services out on your website so certainly one day we will use your services!
 

Take it easy!

 

Alan

[Hockham Admiral]

I just heard back from the transport company and they are quoting £250 to move from this yard to our yacht club (its about 10 mins!) but its a hiab lorry so that includes lift on, transport and lift off, so that sounds fair enough... plus we would probably use him to bring upto norfolk.  I think I'm just tight though and don't like spending anything!!

 

 

 

Why can't you side-tow her to the yacht club, Alan? £250 seems a lot of bread!

[MBA Marine]

Why can't you side-tow her to the yacht club, Alan? £250 seems a lot of bread!

Unless I missed something it still has not had its outdrive fitted, putting it in the water might not be wise!

[JawsOrca]

Yes thats right the outdrive hasn't been fitted although it should only take a couple of days work though. The cost of launching/hauling etc etc will come to about £200 anyway so £250 isn't too bad considering it will be stress free. Although I think we need to stay put a little longer as the yacht club is still a bit to full. We've just got in so I'll publish todays update in a bit. but its been another good day

[JawsOrca]

Day 19.

 

Busy long day!

 

We adopted a used fridge which someone didn't want and after testing it was surprised that it all works (Love freebies!), even it only lasts a seasons then its good!

 

I noticed that theres a new leak in the front cabin, there was a really poorly fitted fibreglass padding on the deck which now appears to have broken down and with no pressure at all from a chisel it peeled back to expose 4 holes on the deck! It appears that the pullpit had been moved at some point but the old holes were badly repaired. I cleaned up the edges with a chisle.. basically I made the edges so the slope inwards so you don't have a sudden edge and exposed the fibres.. (its soo funny to see peoples reaction when Im stabbing away on a fibreglass boat with a chisel, but it works and needs painting anyway so does no harm), after I dried up with a hair dryer (it worked...!) dave came and repaired but putting a patch inside and slowly filled the holes.. 

 

I then spent the rest of the day helping our friend lift his boat slowly onto more woodern chocks (and acros) and then gently slide a huge trailer under it. Unfortunately he was paid to get a big 60 ton crane in but the crane itself sunk through the roof so he abandoned that.. So plan B is to put this trailer under it and launch or move to more stable ground.. We done really well we lifted the boat on 20 ton bottle jacks some foot in the air and slide the trailer half way under. He will be bringing up to norfolk too though so get ready to see it up there. He built it himself over several years. I'm exhausted though as it was a hard work.. I really feel like I've lifted the boat myself!

 

Dave had a really busy day whilst I was "working hard" he; Test fitted the leg transom plate, Made the coupling to connect a intermediate drive shaft to the outdrive, cut some metal shims to expand the engine mounts so the engine sits better on the metal engine beds, took the flywheel and measure on as we need to get a plate made up so an intermittent shaft can go in to connect to the outdrive.

[JawsOrca]

Day 20.

 

Once again dave set the alarms off in the boatyard at 8.20... the yard thought no one is sad enough to work in this weather... 

 

He had a good day though, he adjusted the engine feet supports by adding an extra bit of metal to push the support over and 1/4 inch so that the feet now sit in the middle of the metal bearer.

 

After trying to work out how to connect the engine to the outdrive (sterndrive, leg etc etc.. What is it actually called?) he decided its easier (and cheaper) to butcher (I mean use) the drive plate that was on the engine.. he removed the damping bit (the middle bit) and drilled holes to take a standard coupling. Thankfully it worked and using a tiny bit of shaft and rubber flexi-coupling dome thing he managed to line it all up and it looks like it will work well.. fingers crossed!

 

He also prepared the transom to take the outdrive thing (Notice once again I'm not the mechanical one although I think i'm getting better.. I'm using the word thing less frequently!) as theres a rubber seal which needs to seal on here so it has to be smooth, although daves filling isn't as perfect as mine but he's not far off... although it doesn't help that he filled the holes with epoxy meaning we can't use polyester filler.

 

I worked hard sanding and filling and sanding and filling the wheelhouse area as it has a million holes and I will want to paint it all at some point.

 

Oh almost forgot it rained today and I noticed that the front windows leak (Ok funnel water) so they will need to come out and be reseated.. (I'm really hating alloy windows already).. although I'm not sure when we will get a dry day to do this (answers on a postcard).

 

We also started putting the steering console back together as dave wants this back in so we can work out the steering systems and put the throttle cables back in so the engine can be run up.

 

Thankfully the yard is now open until 5pm now we means another hours play!

[Hockham Admiral]

Alan, Hi.

 

I find it truly remarkable what solutions you two have come up with to achieve your aims...

 

Good Luck!  :clap

[Guest]

.....After trying to work out how to connect the engine to the outdrive (sterndrive, leg etc etc.. What is it actually called?) he decided its easier (and cheaper) to butcher (I mean use) the drive plate that was on the engine.. he removed the damping bit (the middle bit) and drilled holes to take a standard coupling. Thankfully it worked and using a tiny bit of shaft and rubber flexi-coupling dome thing he managed to line it all up and it looks like it will work well.. fingers crossed!........

 

 

I'm watching your thread on re-engining your outdrive with great interest Alan. Thanks for posting all the photos and comprehensive engineering details.

 

I have a slightly newer model Volvo outdrive on my boat, and I'm building up a collection of other people's experiences in coupling them up. I'm still very happy with my Volvo petrol V6, but like to keep my options open, you never know what the future holds.

 

Did you investigate prices and availability for a bell housing adapter plate to marry your new Vetus diesel directly to the Volvo outdrive transom plate ?

 

I think that's the way I'd go if I ever did convert, I believe Lancing Marine in Sussex carry quite a range and will even make up specials.  That way you would only need to support the engine at the front, and there'd be no alignment needed for the intermediate shaft, and you'd get the engine right back against the transom.

 

I'd have to do it that way with mine, since the engine bay is quite short, as these photos I took while checking the heads and outdrive show.

 

Nice to see someone really getting  into it on a DIY basis, my kind of project !  

[JawsOrca]

Thanks John We really see things as little jobs which just need a bit of thought. Although all credit needs to go to Dave who worked this connection out himself..I just made sure that it seems strong enough which is does (and our marine engineer friend agrees all will work.. Which I'm sure it will Kind words though.

 

Hi Strowager.  

 

I'm pleased your are following with interest! I was a bit worried It was getting a bit dull! I hope it is clear what dave is doing to connect this as he's cut about a few parts.

 

So basically, he used the centre from a damper plate which was from a volvo engine which had the correct about of spins so this fitted onto the bell housing on the sterndrive so he welded this onto a split coupling (using the shaft to centre it - which is pictured on day19), this split coupling then fitted onto a foot long peice of shaft, which has a rubber flexi-coupling on it the other end he cut out the gearbox connector the plate from the vetus and carefully bolted it (to the mm as otherwise it will shake itself to death), this plate can all be bolted back onto the vetus flywheel.  He has roughly aligned up but as the engine feet are very flexible and the rubber flexi-coupling is there it doesn't need to be perfectly aligned (thankfully, although on jessica i think he got it 3 thousands of an inch so he can do it!).

 

We did initially want to couple straight up but the main reason we didn't was because there seems to be a bellhousing (The red bit!) on the leg which the leg connects to and which makes a watertight seal on the transom shield so to couple up this would either need to be further butcher or a replacement sourced.. it's this replacement was the bit we couldn't find.  However we also had a couple of other reasons not to look too far:

 

a, means we can re-engine at any time (Maybe one day we can put a lovely v6 petrol in like yours... (Dreaming now!!). We are a little worried that this vetus maybe too small so do really want to keep it separate.

 

b, as above but this should reduce some vibration through the hull, (I hate engine vibration through a hull).

 

c, We should be able to remove the engine whilst in the water, as the leg should still remain watertight as it has separate bolts.

 

d, The boat is 28 feet long and we are a tad worried that we have a lot of weight too far back so moving as much weight forward is in our interest, we don't really want to weight the very front down unless we have to as we do want to do some sea passages so I want the boat to be as light as posible. Also thankfully we have a huge engine bay (i think its almost 10ft x 10ft!) so theres plenty of room.

 

Regards to finding parts for this connection, we did talk to Vetus and R&D design (who do a lot of connectors) and I looked through lancing marines website thoroughly, again we couldn't quite find anything which would be less than £300 - £400 quid and these where getting rather complex.. I think its better to have as many few moving parts of possible, but there were a few options.. I think this final config was mk10! and it's along the lines of what everyone was saying. I this looks good enough to me.. As you mention I am a tad worried it looks a bit DIY but I've seen worst! Plus we don't really like spending money when stuff can be made up

 

What boat have you got this sterndrive and that lovely v6 in?

[JawsOrca]

Day 21,

 

Dave came out of his engine room today and together we reconnected the hardtop to the sides as someone had really botched this up but using household sealant and crappy mouldings, so we moved this and glassed in a 2x1 battern which will take the ply lining later on. That took a few hours! We then decided which tanks to use where so he went back into the engine room to make the tank supports so these can sit in there, (Starboard, diesel 68 litre, black tank, Port Water, white, 80 litre. Both have been pushed as far forward as posible to help with our weight problems, a green one (77 litre) which i'm a tad worried about will go under the port forward v berth for the toilet waste.. I'm not sure its strong enough to use but we will pump out a few times before using to test). If anyone things these are too small then please advise!  I need to go shopping for all the connectors and senders now!

 

I spent the day sanding and filling and sanding an filling! Although we also put the helm back on and reinstalled the steering cable. I've decided that the throttle control will move to the console as I think I would catch my hand on the window surround if it went back against the window, I also noticed that someone has moved the neutral position so I removed the lever to reposition (I admit it took me 10 mins to work out how you adjust the neutral position though!).

 

Dave ended the day glassing in the roof beams in the cabin which where missing, he ran out of gloves though so will have to finish off next week, he also filled the holes on the outside of the hardtop which we had made earlier in the morning.

 

I spent a couple of days back with our mate to help him put his steel sailing boat (which I almost killed myself lifting last week) onto its trailer. It was nice to see him smile though knowing he is closer to launching

 

Sorry no pictures today, it just flew past, I promise I'll get more next week!

[Guest]

""means we can re-engine at any time (Maybe one day we can put a lovely v6 petrol in like yours... (Dreaming now!!). We are a little worried that this vetus maybe too small so do really want to keep it separate."

 

A good plan Alan, keeping the Volvo transom shield absolutely standard, in case of re-engining again with one designed for that leg.

 

On the question of whether the Vetus has sufficient power to shift the 27ft hull, I would say no problem at all if you only want  displacement speeds. 

 

Maximum displacement speed for the average 27ft hull is about  7 knots ( √ waterline length in feet x 1.4 ) , and you only need about 30hp to do that.

 

If the boat has a "Planing Hull Form", then increasing the power much more will get it up on the plane, allowing speeds of 20 knots or so.

 

Getting it to lift though, is like breaking a sort of "marine sound barrier", needing a huge increase in bhp. For a 27ft planing hull, you'd need around 150hp at least.

 

So when someone re-engines a powerful petrol  boat to diesel, a 30hp engine will pootle along nicely at up to about 7 knots, but to retain planing speed capabality (around 20 knots), they need at least 150hp, more likely 200hp. That usually means a turbo diesel as normally aspirated diesels of that bhp are very big and heavy, (unlike the fairly light and very compact V form petrol engine being replaced.)

 

So putting a diesel engine of between say 50 and 120hp is a waste, since it's way overpowered for 7 knots, and yet won't lift up on to the plane to exceed about 10 knots.

 

" this should reduce some vibration through the hull, (I hate engine vibration through a hull)."

 

Yes, a distinct possibility, since any diesel engine bolted directly to the transom shield is, as you say, far more rigidly held than one sitting on four rubber mounts. You don't need to consider thrust at all either, as that's already handled by the lower shaft of the outdrive. 

 

As long as the flexible coupling can handle the range of radial movement from the diesel engine's "floating" rubber mounts.

 

 

"The boat is 28 feet long and we are a tad worried that we have a lot of weight too far back "

 

I don't think you need to worry about that Alan. Sterndrive boats tend to have very square sterns giving lots of buoyancy for engine weight right up against the transom.

 

 

"What boat have you got this sterndrive and that lovely v6 in?"

 

It's in a 23ft Sealine which weighs just under two tons, so the 200hp has a mximum speed of about 30 knots and half throttle cruising at 22 knots.  Broads 6mph speeds are at just over 1000rpm, so the engine is barely audible and uses about half a gallon an hour.  The engine was very tatty looking before I stripped the heads off to check it's condition.

 

 

 

[quo vadis]

Hi Strowager

 

Was your boat at some time in the past called Alison Jane?

[JawsOrca]

Wow thanks Strowager!

 

I knew about the hull speed but didn't quite know the engine power ratio so that's reassuring.  Although I was hoping for 8 knots just encase I choose to bring her round by sea but 7knts I guess is OK (as long as she still goes forward!).  Also again I was worried that this is too small as we was thinking of putting a 55hp in so thanks again thats good to know that the next step is really a v6! (maybe maybe oneday!).

 

Dave is saying the rubber coupling should be ok but time will tell.. Its has much more flex than a standard r&d though so I'd think so (but the vetus engine mounts really are very wobbly).. if it doesn't we will just have to rethink.

 

Dave said thats a nice ford v6 engine ... I dunno how people can look at an engine and see what make it is! - but to me it looks lovely too though.. let me know if you want to swap!.. Although for norfolk as you say the 30hp is good.. but 30kts must be amazing! I do wonder how you manage to adjust the throttle between 3 and 5 kts though!)

 

Thanks again.. Very very interesting and reassuring!

[Guest]

I don't think so Quo, it was called "Searay" when I bought it from a guy in Essex about 5 years ago.

 

 

"Although I was hoping for 8 knots just encase I choose to bring her round by sea but 7knts I guess is OK"

 

It's not an exact science Alan, I can't say exactly 7 knots, so much depends on the gear ratios and the prop pitch. Too coarse and it will labour and not reach full revs, too fine and it will over-rev and not reach maximum possible thrust for any given revs.

 

The Vetus M4.15 appears to be rated at 33bhp, so it's very similar to the originally fitted bmc 1500, which are rated as anything from about 30 to 45bhp, depending on rev range and engine age.

 

If the original bmc engine/outdrive ratio/prop pitch was a good match, then the Vetus should also be ok, but if the prop pitch was too coarse or fine, then the new setup still won't be as efficient as it could be.

 

There's certainly a big change in prop pitch required when a powerful petrol is replaced by a 30hp diesel on an outdrive leg.

 

"Dave said thats a nice ford v6 engine"

 

 Tell him it's a Volvo Penta AQ205 , based on the General Motors 4.3 litre chevrolet V6 engine, pre electronic, pre-fuel injection.  That makes it a tad less fuel efficient than the more modern electronic injection model, but nice and easily maintainable with simple distributor ignition and that massive Rochester Quadrajet 4 barrel carb. (No expensive ECU chips to suddenly burn out !)

 

"do wonder how you manage to adjust the throttle between 3 and 5 kts though!"

 

The throttle movement is non-linear, so maneuvering is quite controllable around the 3 to 6 mph range.

 

It's a bit tricky for anyone not used to that power though, if they're used to say, 90 degrees of movement to get cruising speed, this one would leap up onto the plane instead.

 

I therefore made up a set of adjustable throttle stops (forward and reverse). so I can safely let a guest take the helm, because it then knobbles the throttle down to 6mph.