The Old Boat Wreck in Salhouse Broad

[Guest keith]

I read with interest on the wreck at Salhouse and as mentioned Norwich Sea Scouts may have owned this. I can tell you that i was involved with this group 1st.Norwich who had a water base at Wroxham. I have seen a photo of a very old boat which i believed had a aero engine with a prop to propel it (not in the water). The scout group do have a very large collection of photo's etc dateing back to 1908 which are held in the Archive section at county Hall in Norwich. I will try and find more info and keep you posted! :

[Guest]

Hi Kieth

Welcome to the site

I will try and find more info and keep you posted! :

please we would be most greatfull

Jonny

[AdnamsGirl]

Oh wow !!

I seem to be sitting up late again having got lost in the East Anglian Film Archive website and have just come across a film from 1953 which features the Water Witch at Salhouse quite heavily. Made for the Childrens Film Foundation, the film follows four youngsters as they go out in a rowing boat to explore the wreck of the Water Witch. Quite a charming period piece .... but I seriously doubt that a Norfolk thatchers son in 1953 would have spoken like this!!

Great footage of the Water Witch though.

http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/650

Carol

[Brian]

What a great Find Carol, it shows the Primary School which is now the Village Hall.

I love films like these

[Martinphillips]

Hi,there was in the 60s an ex world war 2 motor torpedo boat that my auntie and uncle owned as a house boat moored in Brunel , I used to stay on the boat in the late 60s. It was was bought by a dubious person to be used by a film company .

[Researcher]

I am researching the recent history of the Ferry Inn at Surlingham and the naval naval vessels that tied up outside. Now I recall about 1995 an MTB being temporarily on public display there before moving on. At the time I was told the original engines had been replaced and if my memory is correct, the same vessel took part in the D day landings. From my online researches I am guessing this was either MTB257 or MTB653. Can anyone clarify this and even more importantly has anyone a photograph of it especially at Surlingham. 

Thanks to all for reading this Paul
 

[grendel]

could that have been MTB 102?

http://www.mtb102.com/

I know for a fact she has been to Beccles

[Roy]

Yes it was probably mtb 102 she used to be moored  at Brundall so not far away 

[ChrisB]

I understand that a lot of vessels of this general type including RML497 the Fairlmile B at the National Museum of the Royal Navy were fitted with Hall-Scott Defender petrol engines. Many of these engines were stripped out by the RN prior to sale and returned to the US under the terms of WWII Lease-Lend agreement.

I regularly travelled on the above when she was Western Lady III on the Torquay to Brixham service.

Later under the name Fairmile she did cruises to Dartmouth and onwards to Greenway Agatha Christies estate.

I have also been told that many war time petrol marine engines were not viable for civilian use, not just because of their eye watering consumption but because they were designed to run on fuel with such a high octane level not available for peacetime marine use.

[Smoggy]

38 minutes ago, ChrisB said:

but because they were designed to run on fuel with such a high octane level not available for peacetime marine use.

Marinised aero engines by the sound of that, I guess it would make sense to produce a common fuel that can be used in all sorts.

[grendel]

MTB 102 originally had 3 Isotta Fraschini 57 litre italian engines, she now runs I believe 2 600hp cummins engines (but still has a fair turn of speed in excess of 20kts)

[marshman]

Those Italian jobbies were fitted to many of that type of boat - must have been a bit thirsty!!!

[Bikertov]

5 hours ago, marshman said:

Those Italian jobbies were fitted to many of that type of boat - must have been a bit thirsty!!!

Apparently they were very quick when running astern 

[marshman]

Shhhh - you will have the Mods taking you to one side!!!

[grendel]

1 hour ago, Bikertov said:

Apparently they were very quick when running astern 

[TonyP]

Sorry to be (very) late to the party. Hopefully some info that may help, or point in the right direction, rather than confuse the issue.

Keith - I was informed that 8th Norwich Sea Scouts had a WWI gunboat which was moored in the cut between their HQ and Pulls Ferry, between the Wars. Think I have seen a photo of this, but that was before the Library fire. This could be the same boat as that which is sunk on Salhouse Broad (Water Witch?) - there couldn't have been that many WWI gunboats on the Broads between the wars in the service of the Sea Scouts.
 

Carol (AdnamsGirl) - Norwich Sea Cadets used (at least) two MTB's as a base - both were Fairmile D Class (Dogboats). First one being MTB 740 from 1945 to around 1954, which fits with your photo no.2 of 1951 (shown 'fully dressed') on the BMPT forum. This was ordered from Collins of Oulton Broad in Aug 1942 and commissioned Aug '44 - believe to have been commanded by G Walsh RNVR July '44 to mid '45 and served with the 53 MTB flotilla. Sold 1946 Norwich Sea Cadets. Then from 1954, MTB 724, built at Wallasea Bay, Rochford, Essex. Ordered Aug '42, Commissioned Sept '43, sold July '54. Commanded by T/Lt J F N Humphreys RNVR Aug '43 to mid '45 and served with 64th MTB Flotilla. Extensive crew and operational history plus photo at worldnavalships.com/forum (this is not the other MTB that you have photo's of - different configuration). I don't know much about MTB 653, other than it too was a Fairmile Class D built by Alex Robertson and Sons Ltd of Sandbank, Scotland, ordered Nov '41, supplied to the Norwegian Navy on completion, returned to RN Jan '45 and sold Dec '45. It's white paint scheme fits with your information of it having seen service in the Mediterranean Theatre. Quite what it was doing in Norwich in 1971 is anybody's guess, but the insertion of windows in it's topsides would tend to indicate that it had been converted into a houseboat in a similar manner to Ron Ashby's MGB56 (Morning Flight), now sadly sunk for the last twenty years in the Island basin at Thorpe. There is a bit of differing information about her - some info lists her as a Thornycroft 75 (73'9"), others as a British Power Boat MkV (71'6"), but I would tend to go with a British Power Boat 70 footer, judging from her lines. This also ties in with her alotted Pennant number (confusing as almost all (bar a few exceptions) MGB's were re-numbered as MTB's in '43) and as I understand it, that she was originally fitted with tripple marinised RR Merlin engines.

Martin - that fits with the history of MTB 102 - the star of the film The Eagle Has Landed (and a couple of others).

Paul - Agree with Grendel and Roy - most likely MTB 102 if mid 90's. Yes, she (like almost all the others) had her engines replaced since they were almost all exclusively sold off engineless and 102 was at both Dunkirk and Normandy for D-Day landings. During the 90's she was in restored military spec, moored at Brundal Marina and regularly seen out and about on this stretch of the Yare (I went for a nice trip on her around this time). As for MTB 653 - see above and this is the first mention I've seen re: MTB 257 being on the Broads. If she had been about, then she was a very rare beast indeed - a J S White and Co of Cowes built 75 footer - one of only two built (but similar to a Thornycroft 75). Original Pennants MGB47 and 48 dating to 1940. Originally built for the Polish Navy as MTB's, but requestioned by the Admiralty and fitted out as MGB's. No.48 later being transferred to the Polish Navy as S1 (presumably No.49 being re-numbered as MTB 257 in 1943). As with MTB 102, she was originally fitted with tripple Isotta-Fraschinni engines.

To all, I hope some of this may help/confirm others findings or at least serve to drive other investigations onwards. Cheers, Tony.

[Vaughan]

9 hours ago, TonyP said:

Ron Ashby's MGB56 (Morning Flight), now sadly sunk for the last twenty years in the Island basin at Thorpe. There is a bit of differing information about her - some info lists her as a Thornycroft 75 (73'9"), others as a British Power Boat MkV (71'6"), but I would tend to go with a British Power Boat 70 footer, judging from her lines.

I can confirm that Morning Flight was 71' 6", and was a prototype design by Hubert Scott-Paine of the British Powerboat Co, one of about 4 built in 1936, to try and gain the Admiralty contract for the "Short 72" fast patrol boats.  This contract was eventually won by Vospers, with their prototype, MTB 102.

Scott-Paine then took his design to the U.S., where it became the Elco PT (patrol torpedo) boat.

Vospers used Isotta Frachini engines, until Italy put a spanner in the works by entering the war on the wrong side!  After that, they were fitted with Packard "Merlins", built under licence in the U.S. There is differing opinion as to whether the Packard was a Merlin, or a similar design by Packard, with lighter cylinder heads.

Morning Flight, as a prototype built before the war, had supercharged Roll Royce Merlins. This production was later given over entirely to aircraft.

[Vaughan]

On 14/02/2023 at 10:28, marshman said:

Those Italian jobbies were fitted to many of that type of boat - must have been a bit thirsty!!!

I know that Morning Flight's engines would give her 38 knots, using just over 4 gallons of 101 octane aviation spirit per minute - on each engine!

[Aboattime]

5 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I know that Morning Flight's engines would give her 38 knots, using just over 4 gallons of 101 octane aviation spirit per minute - on each engine!

My father in law was on Mtbs during the war out of Lowestoft,he always said that there one big advatage over the Germans counterpart was there speed!!