A matter of perspective

[MauriceMynah]

I quite shamelessly hoover this topic or at least the gist of it, from "another place" as I think it important that it be aired where ever possible especially where people new to boating may be found.

 

What should a cruiser skipper do when approaching a sailing craft...  and...

What should a sailie skipper do when seeing a cruiser approaching...   also...

What should a cruiser skipper do if the sailing craft skipper appears not to be doing that which the cruiser skipper thinks he should be doing... and also...

What should a sailie skipper do if the cruiser skipper appears not to be doing that which the sailie skipper thinks he should be doing.

 

My objective here is to scupper the "them v us" feelings and get a meaningful dialog going. So, let me start the ball rolling using a situation that happens to me so often as to make me wonder who is in the wrong.

 

In this situation we shall say the river is relatively straight and wide. the breeze is generally gentle but constant and blowing straight towards me.

 

Also heading straight towards me is a sailing boat "gull winging" (that is to say running with the wind, boom out to his port side, foresail out to his starboard) He is on 'my side' of the river. there is room for me to pass port to port, but it's perhaps tighter than I would like. There is a mass of room if I were to pass him on the 'wrong side'.

 

 

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE...

If I squeeze between the end of his boom and the bank (thus passing port to port) I shall be technically in the right as he has no business being on my side of the river. If I try to pass starboard to starboard, and he changes his course. I am in deep poo.

 

My guess at his thoughts is...

Why is this pratt trying to pass this side when even the Torrey Canyon could pass the other side without hitting anything.

 

Right, This is the first situation I put to you all. I would like to know all the opinions, and other situations that can be described, but please remember to keep it polite and constructive.

[Jonathan]

Supplementary question Maurice:  Are either of you sounding a horn or waving an arm?   ... Wouldn't that help to clarify who is intending to do what?

[MauriceMynah]

Let us take it that neither skipper is giving any indication to the other.

For my own part, in those circumstances I try to pass port to port wondering why the sailie is making it difficult for me. I want to hear his side of the story.

[Rincewind]

Difficult to say. I was told many moons ago, and by a very clued-up sailing skipper, that the difference between having the wind in the sail and not having the wind in the sail was often a matter of feet rather than yards and that running in a seemingly 'silly' position on the river was necessary to keep that propulsion.

 

I have no problem with taking any route, regardless of my position on the river, which helps the sailing vessel as it's way easier to juggle the throttles rather than lots of bits of string and flappy bits, as long as safe navigation isn't compromised for either party or the rest of the river users...including anglers.

 

Having said that, I'm pretty sure there is also the 'bloody-minded' factor of some sailing skippers who think they own the river. On the other foot, of course, there are also those mobo skippers who also think the same at times.

 

Two-way consideration is the key but...sadly not always the case.

[Mowjo]

Maurice! I just came off the thread you mention and it looks well on the way to becoming the old us and them situation, personally I can never work out why! there's room for all of us, and if you think about it rag and stick was on the Broads long before any of us stinkies, if it's not rag and sticks Vs stinkies, it will be private Vs hire, it will never change, now back to your question, never panic when approaching or overtaking, take it slowly, remember we have a throttle and reverse, when tacking I get as close as I feel safe then pass to the stern watching them to see if I need to throttle up to get clear, the only time I differ from this is if they are approaching me and it's a bit narrow, I watch what side the sail is and go the other side if it's safe, most of it is just common sense and I can never work out why some people get so worked up about it, yes it's nice if they tell you what side to pass but even as someone who has never set foot on a Raggie I can see sometimes they have their hands full, the only time I ever get wound up is on narrow places on the Ant where you'll get two or three Raggies a boat length apart, little or no wind, going nowhere fast and tacking at different times, I've had this happen more times than I can remember, now I know some don't have engines but in most of mine they did, so why the hell can't they just start them until they get to Barton or the main river, to me the Ant is like trying to sail up a canal, my logic says start up, you'll get there quicker and have more proper sailing time, I can't say I've ever really had any problems with Raggies, I'm on my boat to relax not get wound up, you'll get the odd A-hole but I've had more of them on private stinkies,,,

 

 

Frank,,,,,

[batrabill]

Why have you moved to this forum?

[MauriceMynah]

I desperately hope that this thread manages to stay well away from the "Them v us" attitude. Instead I'm hoping my sailing friends will start to tell me what they are wanting people to do under what circumstances.

 

It is my suspicion that many sailies think "Well it's obvious what I expect him to do" but sadly that's the problem, I don't think some things are obvious. They might be if I sat and thought things through, but that doesn't happen when you're at the helm. That's why I called this thread "a matter of perspective" I'm after getting information across and back!

[Guest]

Oh Maurice, you naughty boy. This is a subject almost as difficult to keep civil as the national park one.

[grendel]

It strikes me - (and I am by no means a saily) that possible if the sailing ship is sailing gull winged, that if she deviated her course too much the wrong way (ie if the wind were dead aft and then moved to the wrong side for the sail) she might suddenly gybe and the boom swing to the other side (of course this knowledge has been picked up purely from reading the swallows and amazons books - where by trying to hang on too long with the wind from the wrong side of the sail caused a problem (swallowdale)).

As such going down the correct side might make matters worse -by forcing the sailboat the wrong way. so might going to the wrong side to pass, either way a decision must be made and it would be easier if both captains indicated their intentions with plenty of time and space. courtesy costs nothing and in all probability could avoid an accident or at least confusion and complication.

Grendel

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi John (MM),

 

I think it is a very good question and many good skippers will give you an indication of where they may wish you to pass.

 

Not much of an issue with most hire craft but there are a few that have an high air draft and a fair few private craft that could cause the yacht to loose the wind from its sails if passed on the wrong side.

 

At the end of the day if nobody decides in all fairness you just have to take your best shot.

 

Come on all you yachtsmen lets have your input.

 

Regards

Alan

[Guest]

It strikes me - (and I am by no means a saily) that possible if the sailing ship is sailing gull winged, that if she deviated her course too much the wrong way (ie if the wind were dead aft and then moved to the wrong side for the sail) she might suddenly gybe and the boom swing to the other side (of course this knowledge has been picked up purely from reading the swallows and amazons books - where by trying to hang on too long with the wind from the wrong side of the sail caused a problem (swallowdale)).

As such going down the correct side might make matters worse -by forcing the sailboat the wrong way. so might going to the wrong side to pass, either way a decision must be made and it would be easier if both captains indicated their intentions with plenty of time and space. courtesy costs nothing and in all probability could avoid an accident or at least confusion and complication.

Grendel

 

Sailing dead downwind means that a yacht is constantly close to making a gybe, and that can be caused either by a change of course or a shift in the wind direction. However in MM's scenario if he keeps to the right (ie passing the yacht port to port) it will if anything cause the yacht to move the "right" way, making an unintended gybe less likely.

 

If MM chose to move over to the "wrong" side of the river he should keep far enough away from the yacht to be out of reach of it's boom if it does gybe, as it will be heading in his direction!

[C.Ricko]

Pass where there is most room if it safe to do so, always be aware that a gust of wind can mean a saily can lean over suddenly or have to let the boom swing out leave plenty of room.

most boats with a crew will signal to you if it is important,

only arrogant people will swear at you if they have not indicated their intentions.

[ExMemberBobdog]

In what I think is the spirit of the original post, can I try to offer an answer.  For clarification, I sail a boat with no engine, but I also helm a motor vessel frequently and I kayak - all on the broads and rivers.

 

Running with the wind, close to the bank - apparently the wrong bank - why am I there?  Partly because I get more/better wind close to the bank than in the middle of the river.  It's a quirk of river sailing in Norfolk that the wind 'lifts' as it comes across the reeds and meets the river.  You'll see some of the very best Norfolk sailors with their rubbing strakes literally brushing the reeds to maximise the benefit from this effect. Additionally, if I'm running against the tide, that tidal effect is strongest in the centre of the stream, which is why I want to stay where I am.  A third point is this; the OP mentions a more or less dead straight and pretty wide stretch of river, but somewhere further up/down river there were bends, and maybe at some point I didn't have the wind behind me, I was tacking, and rather than follow the outside of the curve in the river I 'shortcutted' across the apex, again to maximise progress.  I'm now on the 'wrong' side of the river, but it makes more sense to stay here than become a hazard by trying to cross over the stream again.

What should the 'stinkie' skipper do?  Steer round me, pass starboard to starboard.  I'll hold my course and thank you for your courtesy.

[JennyMorgan]

The stick to the right rule appears to preclude common sense! But lets be honest, the first time hirer in a day-boat is probably either scared stiff or oblivious to the problems, just sticking to the rules exactly as told to them.

 

I have been working both the wind and the tide and been heading along what would be my left side when an approaching day-boat, on his right side, has squeezed between me and the reeds, actually pushing against the reeds, not only that but actually passing under my boom. On another occasion, in the Three Rivers Race, a dayboat actually overtook us on our right side, and we were well over to the right anyway.  He too pushed against the reeds and passed under our boom, which itself was just touching the reeds!  In both cases had I not sheeted in sharpish then my sheets would probably have snagged on their cabin roofs.

 

Does seem to be a dayboat rather than a hire cruiser thing. I suspect that the bloke handing over the dayboat has given the minimum advice possible, e.g. stick to the right and you'll be alright.

[JawsOrca]

The stick to the right rule appears to preclude common sense! But lets be honest, the first time hirer in a day-boat is probably either scared stiff or oblivious to the problems, just sticking to the rules exactly as told to them.

 

I have been working both the wind and the tide and been heading along what would be my left side when an approaching day-boat, on his right side, has squeezed between me and the reeds, actually pushing against the reeds, not only that but actually passing under my boom. On another occasion, in the Three Rivers Race, a dayboat actually overtook us on our right side, and we were well over to the right anyway.  He too pushed against the reeds and passed under our boom, which itself was just touching the reeds!  In both cases had I not sheeted in sharpish then my sheets would probably have snagged on their cabin roofs.

 

Does seem to be a dayboat rather than a hire cruiser thing. I suspect that the bloke handing over the dayboat has given the minimum advice possible, e.g. stick to the right and you'll be alright.

 

Geez! credit where credits due there must be some "skill" in working out if it will fit between the bank and under the boom!! 

 

 

When being taught to sail by an experienced sailor I was told "never swear, just say Lovely Day and grin"..  

[NonTecky]

As a hirer I always approach a saily boat with caution! I am more than happy to take instructions on which side to pass (if approaching bow to bow), usually no instruction is indicated, so I use common sense. Ive not been shouted at yet!

[Hockham Admiral]

Why have you moved to this forum?

 

Bill, welcome aboard the Friendly Forum.... why not, indeed?  

[mbird]

I'd pass stbd to stbd to give the maximum clearance to the yacht, since sudden wind shifts can quickly have the sail gybing or cause it to alter course with little warning.

 

I guess I have a slight advantage having sailed quite a lot a few years back, and so I try to anticipate where the yacht is likely to be when I get to it, and pass astern of it. There very few times that you can't assess this reasonably well just by watching the motion of the yacht as you approach. When tacking, a yacht will very often be much quicker across the river in one direction than the other, and so wait until he is on the longer tack to give yourself as much time as possible to get past without having to floor it and kick up a huge wash for the yacht to then have to deal with.

 

What I do get a little frustrated about is yachts which are under power, yet still seem to be all over the river. When using an engine a yacht is a stinkie, not a sailie and therefore should stick to the correct side of the river. I had an occassion a couple of months ago when I rounded a bend to be met by three yachts, all under power, line abreast the river and so had to thread between them. Luckily I'd seen their masts over the reeds and so knew they were approaching, but I think seeing me come round the bend was a bit of a surprise for them as they had no forewarning I was there.

[Rincewind]

 

three yachts, all under power, line abreast the river

Mark, it's times like that when I recall the very wise words of Rod (B17/FlyingFortress) some years ago when asked about the same subject..."Might Is Right"

[Mowjo]

I tend to watch them tack a couple of times to see what direction is faster, plus I watch the little flappy thing on the mast, being higher up I find it a good indicator of wind direction, I try to pass on the long tack so I don't have to change my speed, basically it's just a matter of paying attention and being aware of your surroundings, Mr Bird I'm with you on the under engine bit, I normally get caught by that on the bend at Cockshoot Dyke,,,

 

Frank,,,,

[ExMemberBobdog]

Mark, it's times like that when I recall the very wise words of Rod (B17/FlyingFortress) some years ago when asked about the same subject..."Might Is Right"

 

Yup, and four foot of solid oak bowsprit, tipped with steel, goes through a GRP hull like a hot knife through butter  :

[BrundallNavy]

MM, in your example I would pass well clear on the Starboard side. Going between the boom and the bank is not a place I would want to be unless instructed by the helm, as a sailor you are always trying to stay on the windward bank if possible this might mean "straight lining" round some bends to avoid having to tack early. If you get caught on a lee shore it can sometimes require the main to be dropped before you are able to get off. I have had boats both hire and private try to pass down a 6 ft gap between me and the bank when there is plenty of room on the other side you try to leave as much room as possible but a boat like PL can be slow to respond and has been known to slip sideways when you least expect it. As has been discussed not all helms both motor and sail have the same experience so where possible stay well clear as even we don't always know what's going to happen next. If instructions are given always follow them then if something does happen you can be exonerated

Doug.

[Matt]

I stand up with a beer in my hand, hold my arms out and shrug my shoulders. If that does not prompt them to engage in some communication and let them know what why I am going!

[Poppy]

The first piece of advice I would give to any hirer would be 'read the bl***y hirers handbook. Amazing what you can find in there

 

Secondly (to any mobo) please accept the directions given by the saily. We are trying to be helpful you know.

Oh, and shouting at me "don't effing well tell me where to go" doesn't help. Yes, I have been so told, (But he was a private boat )

[ExMemberBobdog]

I am of the school of thought that says if, as a sailor,  you offer helpful advice to skippers of motor vessels about your intentions and where they should go, 99.9% of them are grateful for the assistance and all passes off well with a smile and a wave.  

 

I do know some sailors who take a slightly different stance.  Their argument is that if they issue a direction/instruction and there is subsequently an accident, that the mobo skipper can then say "I was only doing as directed" and the 'blame' comes back to the sailor.  They prefer to keep quiet and let the mobo skipper solve (as they see it) his own problem.