A matter of perspective

[ExUserGone]

Communication can go the other way too, I have been in the position of heading towards an oncoming raggie  near thurne mouth when an arm came out the side pointing which way to go (great I hear you say), in a split second another came out the other side doing the same, not a change of message as both arms stayed there at the same time, so which one was the skipper and which one was the ****head with too many arms for a simple brain to operate?

I ignored both and made my own choice to go very wide stb/stb and let them carry on as they were.

I am not anti-raggie in anyway and am one of those that normally take instruction with a cheery nod and wave, and I never dobbed in the 2 girls in the sailing dinghy that I towed along the ant for several miles and let go as we came into view of their parent vessel so they didn't get rumbled.....

[quo vadis]

Common sense must prevail simples

[ExMemberBobdog]

Communication can go the other way too, I have been in the position of heading towards an oncoming raggie  near thurne mouth when an arm came out the side pointing which way to go (great I hear you say), in a split second another came out the other side doing the same, not a change of message as both arms stayed there at the same time, so which one was the skipper and which one was the ****head with too many arms for a simple brain to operate?

 

Yes, I understand that problem.  Not so long ago I was skippering one of the Hunters yachts, with a crew of schoolchildren.  The kids had seen me giving directions to mobo skippers and, unprompted and initially unrealised by me, started doing the same, but not necessarily the same direction I had been giving.  Apologised to the mobos for the confusion, and issued some pretty stern instructions to the kids!

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I`ve done a lot of sailing in the past, and can see the yachts point of view.

 

However, whenever i`m at the helm, and we`re approaching a yacht in mid stream, if he`s coming toward me "goose winging",  i`l always slow down and  make for the biggest gap. If however he`s (or she`s) tacking consistently, i always slow down, give a quick blast of the horn, then when they look at me, i make a clear indication of pointing my arm once to port, then quickly to stbd, and wait for the skippers response. It does`nt matter which side of the river you`re on, but if the yacht is tacking, you ALWAYS PASS UNDER THEIR STERN, which is invariably the direction the skipper has pointed to.

 

Whenever i`ve done this, we ALWAYS get a wave of thanks, and often shouted thanks too.

 

It`s just common courtesy and good manners.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I forgot to add, always go slowly under their stern, and don`t throttle up untill you are well clear.

[ExMemberBobdog]

Yup, and Speedtriple makes a good point; "if she's tacking consistently".  That's probably a sign of a competent skipper who will be aware of your presence and will give you the room you need to pass as and when possible.  If the sailing is erratic you're more likely to be facing a novice, so take a bit more care.  (Although sometimes the wind makes novices of us all).

[Hockham Admiral]

The first piece of advice I would give to any hirer would be 'read the bl***y hirers handbook. Amazing what you can find in there

 

That's a bit harsh, Pops............

[Hockham Admiral]

As a WAAFI with over 30 years experience up and down  the Channel and crossing the North Sea I think I can speak with both hats on.  

 

Sailing a sea-going boat from Brundall to Gt Yarmouth I was constantly amazed by the lack of courtesy to a Yottie from some Stinkies'   

 

Now, as a Stinkie, I am ditto by the actions of some Yotties.  

 

I guess we all have to make allowances..............  

[Samuel]

As an owner of a Broads yacht I have generally found most motor boat helms very helpful despite some of the seemingly strange manoeuveres we sailors perform! I would like to point out some additional points and it would be interesting to hear the views of fellow sailors and motor boat helms:

 

Because when using the engine I am also a motor boat, I too have to give way to yachts under sail. I perhaps have an advantage that I am in a better position to judge the intention of a yacht than those who don't sail. However there are occasions, especially when approaching a flotilla of yachts racing at close quarters, that it becomes impossible to give way to them all within the confines of a river. The only sensible method then appears to to hug the right hand bank at a reduced speed. And if I support the concept that yachts racing have a heightened 'right of way' than those not racing then I am likely to provide a more equal disadvantage to each yacht.

 

When sailing downwind I will if possible keep to the right. If it means gybing then I will gybe. Of course there are occasions, with the wind on the beam for instance, when I might be hugging the 'wrong' bank because I know the next turn in the river means I will be heading into the wind and so I want to keep as far to windward as possible. But I don't think that absolves me from considering what is coming towards me around that blind bend and being prepared to take avoiding action despite my right of way over motor boats. For all I know it could be  a yacht sailing fast around that bend. Perhaps I might not have time to work out which yacht has right of way.

 

Compared to other places I have sailed I do think there is a minority of sailors who have a rather gung ho attitude. Broads yachts usually have a very large sail area for their size and can be fast, large and powerful boats. There is a tendency for some, because the Broads is a relatively benign sailing environment, to push it just a little too far and that can be rather disconcerting for other Broads users.

[JennyMorgan]

Geez! credit where credits due there must be some "skill" in working out if it will fit between the bank and under the boom!! 

 

 

When being taught to sail by an experienced sailor I was told "never swear, just say Lovely Day and grin"..  

I think that they relied on luck and bending reeds!

[MauriceMynah]

Well first of all I'd like to thank everyone for their input. As a newbie to boating (I've only been doing it for 50 years) I've learned quit a lot from this thread already. I was for example, largely unaware of the "wind lift" phenomenon. It had been mentioned to me before but I hadn't understood it.

 

On the lack of courtesy and/or common sense, that is to be found in all camps in equal measure and I have no doubt that we have each suffered the consequences at some time or other.

 

I can see that jibing is an issue when sailing but ask is it also an issue when motor sailing?

I also see that a sailing craft under sail but with a small axillary outboard running isn't much more maneuverable than when the engine isn't running, this needs to be allowed for (courtesy AND common sense) but if I have to alter my speed and course to accommodate him, is he not being discourteous to me?  If a sailing craft is under sail, but has an engine ticking over in neutral in readiness, is he sailing or motoring and how can I tell the difference?

 

So many questions... yet I have more!!!

 

I ask them, not to establish a "right of way" to which I can blindly stick, but to clarify some situations that could possibly lead to unfortunate verbal exchanges and gesticulations.

[Guest]

Gybing should not be an issue when a yacht is motoring with its sails up because the "apparent" wind created by the boat's forward motion will come from ahead. And in any case the crewman on the mainsheet should have it sheeted in. As ever, there are exceptions - say a sudden gust of wind and an unattentive crew.

 

My understanding is that as soon as the engine is started the yacht becomes a powered vessel. But I wouldn't count on all helmsmen appreciating this!

[mbird]

And if motoring with sails up, they yacht should of course be displaying the inverted cone day shape on the forestay   

[Poppy]

And if motoring with sails up, they yacht should of course be displaying the inverted cone day shape on the forestay   

 

...and how many ( on the Broads) would know what THAT meant ?

[BrundallNavy]

I once got into a tacking duel with a Pegasas Yacht approaching Thurne, I caught him up quite quickly but when I tried to pass he constantly called starbopard on me, I was puzzelled to know how he suddenly had sppeded up untill i saw the water coming from the exhaust, I called over to let him know he didnt have the right to call water on me as he had his engine running to which he replied it was only charging his battery.  Now PL being a heavy old girl will sail along the bank for quite a while before she loses speed a plastic 25ft boat will not so he must have had it in gear as there was no way he could make that much ground.  I gave up and letr him go in the end as he was getting more and more desperate to stop me passing.

 

The main problem with giving MB's instruction is they can sometimes be slow to react and before you know it I am on the other side of the river waiting to tack again, if this happens more than a couple of times I just tack short and let them go. 

 

Doug.

[JawsOrca]

We had a similar incident last summer which did make me see red .. Coming across breydon from yarmouth.. tide behind us (extra Browne points please!) as we turned through the big white bridge (1 browne point gone!).. we saw a hireboat coming towards us on the wrong side of the river but even worst on the "dry side" of the markers... then suddenly seeing why.. there was a huge regatta of sailing boats waiting for the bridge to open.. but they were taking the full width of the channel, right up to the markers.. all under engine.. sails neatly wrapped away...

 

Bizarrely several gave me the direction to pass them the dry side of the marker.. therefore as mentioned i had the tide behind me and (I guess) being a  reasonably deep drafted vessel   requiring to manueovre in the deep channel (and helming my parents pride a joy (With my mum sitting next to me)) .. I held my course and my finger firmly on the air horn button... (whilst indicating quite clearly that the sailing boats need to re-position themselves (...quickly) to our port side (With a smug grin and saying "Lovely day"..) Bizarrely they all quickly mastered the rules of the river and got out the way! ..

 

Under engine a sailing boat is just like us motor boats (Just slower ).. This is one reason why Orca has been fitted with twin 180db airhorns   (we actually have a nice "Excuse me" horn for general day to day use and these which I refer to as "I asked you nicely.. Now....").   

[ExMemberBobdog]

Yup, a sailing boat with the engine running is a motor boat, whatever he's doing with his sails, and even if he's not in gear, so no special privileges.  Just watch out for the sneaky few with an electric motor

[MauriceMynah]

But Bobdog, I've just been told that if a saily has got its engine running, but is not using it for propulsion, it is still a saily!

This needs to be checked!

[Rincewind]

If definitely not being used for propulsion, I would consider the boat to still be a sailing boat and subject to the whims of the prevailing wind and the skills of the skipper...or lack thereof. The difficulty would be to prove that there was no mechanical propulsion going on. To be brutally honest...more trouble than it's worth IMHO.

 

We've encountered far more good than bad on the rivers, from both powered and non-powered camps. There are always the really arrogant, waste-of-skin types but, thankfully, they are few and far between...at least in our experience.

[Guest]

From the navigation byelaws:-

 

“Sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail other than a

quanted vessel provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is

not being used.

 

Perhaps not as clear as it could be!

[ExMemberBobdog]

The reason a vessel under sail has a right of way is because that vessel has limited manoeuvrability relative to a powered vessel.  If the sailies engine is running, regardless of whether it is currently in gear, he can quickly engage gear and is able to manoeuvre - he is therefore a powerboat.  An arrogant and ignorant skipper may try to tell you otherwise, in which case, my advice to a powerboat skipper would be to turn off your engine and take out the key. You then become a vessel 'limited in it's ability to manoeuvre' and all his 'rights' are dead ... and that's from me, primarily a sailor!