Witnesses sought

[Oddfellow]

The on a strong ebb, the Ferry is often pulled downstream to the extent that passage is prohibited by the rising chains on both sides. The signs state "You are advised not to pass until the ferry has docked". This instruction key to safe passage. 

[ExUserGone]

I tend to look at the angle of the chains as they leave the ferry as they will follow a curve to the end, if they are steep down go for it but at a shallow angle hang back and wait.

[Baitrunner]

Andy from Freedom boats has it nailed - if it ain't docked don't try it. 

[JawsOrca]

.. I don't do if I see both ramps up.. you can see that from a good distance.. If its up and I'm with the tide I turn around and sit and wait pointing into the tide (Or practice my own ferry drifting!)..

 

Hows she doing Andy? is she all fixed and looking pretty again? 

[JennyMorgan]

 "You are advised not to pass until the ferry has docked".

 

We know what is meant by 'docked', but does the average first time boat user?

[jillR]

I would be wary of using lights for a signal in the summer due to bright sun making them

 

hard to see

 

saying that ..... perhaps flashing two coloured lights would work .... perhaps

 

red and green would grab attention or perhaps flags instead and a blast on

 

his hooter to confirm hes about to leave the bank.

[marshman]

On the question of lights, my guess is that they would make no difference. If you cannot see or cannot recognise chains, you won't recognise what the lights mean!!!

 

Down at Sandbanks last week - they have a strobe light but could hardly see it. Ferry a bit bigger, chains a bit bigger but still they hit it now and again!!

[Oddfellow]

Peter, I know you're playing Devils Avacardo, but it is surely likely to be rather difficult for any adult to claim they cannot establish the likely meaning of the word "docked" whilst on a boat on the river approaching a large vessel crossing the river in front of them that is suitably signposted.

 

Are we to supply dictionaries with every bit of signage or perhaps a QR code so that the illiterate may get some further advice by way of video or something?

 

As for the damage and repairs, we are still awaiting a new rudder to be made. GRP Repairs are not complete yet either.

[JennyMorgan]

Andy, when on the Three Rivers race this year I ended up having a coffee aboard a hire cruiser that I helped moor up. The holidaymakers were a charming young family, seemingly of at least average intelligence and at the end of their first weeks holiday. It really surprised me just how much of what folk like you or I would take for granted was a complete mystery to those lovely folk. Complete innocents afloat, our world was a new, alien one to them. A great adventure and probably a case of ignorance being bliss. I say ignorance but they were hardly ignorant folk, just new to boating, and thoroughly enjoying it.

[littlesprite]

I still think that for people new to boats some kind of book/DVD should be sent out with the booking forms, having information in advance gives time for someone to digest the vast amounts of new terms, technology, mysteries of boating.

I don't criticise the handover, or the people giving the tuition but so much information in such a short time when all you are thinking about is getting underway and finding a mooring for the night, is it really any wonder that most of it just doesn't sink in.

 

Mistakes will always happen even to highly trained and qualified personnel, anything such as lights, warning signs, audible alarms that can minimise the chance of a mistake would be welcome.

For myself I would like a 2 minute warning of when the ferry is going to depart giving me time to either proceed in a timely manner or hold back and wait. 

[kfurbank]

Andy, Peter,

 

Whether people understand the meaning of the word docked is slightly irrelevant, because it should be noted that these signs are only advisory. Advice which the ferry operators in my personal experience often ignore.

 

We all know that motor should give way to sail, however there are occasions when other byelaws supersede this. One is byelaw 21 which states that no vessel should let go from a mooring if it is likely to interfere unreasonably with the passage of any other vessel in sight. Add byelaw 21 to byelaw 26 which states that the master of a vessel operating as a ferry shall when crossing a waterway keep out of the way of any vessel navigating along the waterway and you get a situation where the ferry really should not be leaving it's berth unless other vessels are a long distance away.

 

My personal experience of the last 18 months or so is that on occasions I have been past the advisory signs and still the ferry has departed. In my personal opinion in clear contravention of byelaws 21 and 26. To the letter of the byelaws it is my belief that with the bends in the river there and the fast flowing tides at times, once a boat is in sight and approaching the ferry it really shouldn't leave it's mooring.

 

However we all know the ferry is a commercial operation and trying to make a living and at busy times if it followed the byelaws correctly it would be held up severely at times. A suitable compromise would appear to be to follow the advice of the advisory signs that have been placed on the approaches to the ferry. I.E don't pass the signs until the ferry has docked, BUT equally as importantly the ferry should not depart if a vessel has already passed those signs. I repeat something which I have experienced in the last 18 months or so. 

 

From personal experience it is my view that some refresher training is given to one or two of the ferry operators. I have seen the ferry load, the ramp go up immediately and the operator walk to start collecting money and then look up river and see me approaching and having to back off. I have even on one occasion had an acknowledgement that I took to be an apology for letting go to soon.

 

I repeat, all the above is my personal experience and has little bearing on whatever may have happened to Andy's boat as I was not there at the time, but people should not automatically assume that any vessel that hits the ferry or has a near miss is at fault.

[Baitrunner]

Lively chat this one.

 

In response to Little Sprite (sorry but I am sure you all have real names). Would it matter if the hire companies sent out DVDs in advance? I doubt anyone would watch them unless they were very keen - the folks on this forum I am sure cover a very small number of the people who cruise the Broads and I am equally sure take care of the hire boats and if not experienced have at least asked for help. The other 90% see it as someone else's property to fix when they give it back.

 

I have helped loads of boats moor up over the years. Funny one was this summer a day hire boat down at Somerleyton. The front mooring line was just about long enough to reach the post let along tie off!! At least I could shout to them to turn round and come in against the tide.

 

I also think a lot of people don't realise it isn't like driving a car - yeah you only do 6mph max, but it dont have brakes or go round corners quite the same.  They also forget there is 20-50ft of boat behind them that in order to turn will go in the opposite direction. Let alone wind, tide and being cautious of ferries and other moored boats.

 

Many years ago on my first hire boat experience (and I had been used to boats before) I did a lot of research on forums just like this - tide times, best time to cross Breydon, even refreshing myself on the techicalities of handling a broads cruiser (very different to a smaller boat with an outboard). And still felt I needed to take a lot of care.

 

On later hires with friends, I can tell you their attitude was very different to mine - oh how difficult can it be to moor a 60ft boat at Yarmouth. One of our drivers insisted he could do it and managed to hit a moored boat on the way in. The following day he was still confident and hit the piling coming off the mooring. He was very complacent about it probably because the boat was hired in my name!!!!! By the way I would NEVER let him moor my private boat!

 

As for bylaw 21 - never had a problem with hire boats, but private boats - On several occasions have had to take avoiding action because people either don't look or think they don't have to.   

 

If you hire or rent anything - car, boat, house - I can assure you only a very few people will treat it with respect like you would your own. That's from experience of all 3!

 

I don't have an answer, but maybe put up the excess to deter the rouges, but then does that impact on your business.

 

I will get off my soap box now!

[Oddfellow]

Some valid points from everyone. 

 

We have long looked at ways of improving information given to hirers. I believe we were the first operator to send out our skippers handbooks along with the booking documentation, for instance. We have done this since day one. I could probably count using my fingers and toes the number of people who tell me they've actually read it when I am handing a boat over. 

 

We have a number of innovative ideas for improving the transfer of knowledge to our customers, but we are a small company with little time to innovate. One day....... perhaps. 

[Baitrunner]

Rock and a hard place really.

 

We can only hope that your innovative ideas pay off and some of the other operators can follow suit.

 

I watched some of the accident videos on the forum and it is amazing how stupid people are - Maybe you could fit web cams to the boats and any accidents get sent to "Youve been framed" £250 a time wont pay for all the damage, but might make you feel a bit better.

 

I have every sympathy for your company and it would stress me out too much being in your shoes.  

[grendel]

nowadays most building sites have an induction before the person is allowed on the site (all elf and safety related) part of this can be a safety video, everyone who goes onto the building site has to sit through this and then sign off to say they have done this, how about as part of the initial handover (perhaps in the waiting area, you could have a safety video on a continuous loop, if this was also humorous in nature, the message would probably sink in a little better, then as part of the handover the odd question about something in the video could be asked.

it could be relatively simple, covering which side of the river to drive, what to do at bridges, oh my god that sailing ship is using all the river, what do I do, how to go round that yellow post, and even the chain ferry.

maybe a 5 or 10 minute video on a continual loop. maybe even a couple of videos, either using actors, or a cartoon.

just a thought really.

Grendel

[Oddfellow]

I am sure that Clive could afford to produce such a video; I fear that I probably could not.

[grendel]

could all of the hirers club together to have a video made then all use it - or ask the BA for a video (in the name of elf and safety).

Grendel

[MauriceMynah]

The idea of a "training DVD" was something I used to try to champion on the other forum, but with little (or rather no) success.

 

Such a video would be watched keenly by the recipients if it were not only instructive but entertaining too. Some here might remember how business training companies used John Cleese in their training films. Such films were remembered purely because of their entertainment value, but this achieved the required objective of getting the message across.

 

What I used to say on that other forum was that within the forum there was a wealth of knowledge and experience. the same applies to this forum.

 

What is needed is for the likes of Clive and Andy to catalogue the incidents that most need addressing, those members here who are newer to boating to list their main worries and questions, and everyone else to list their own errors as well as those they have witnessed.

 

Just as an example, think of the film "Airplane". That lasted just under 90 minutes with people watching it many times because they found it so funny. Had it also carried an educational message within its plot, it would have been incredibly successful in passing it on.

 

No, Nobody here is going to stump up for a slick Hollywood production team, but as we draw close to the long nights of winter, whats to stop us working out just what we could achieve between us..... including how to approach the Reedham chain ferry?

.

[marshman]

Much as I like the idea of a training video, the ones who don't need to watch it will, and those who DO need to watch it won't!!!

 

Hunters have been doing one for some years and it makes no difference - still about 50% reef the sails incorrectly and thats explained in great detail!!!

 

Basically, with the greatest of respect to the individual concerned, if you cannot see a large moving object attached to the shore by chains either side and signposted and easily visible, you are not going to sit down and watch a video about all those things you know about!!! Or think you do!!!!

[MauriceMynah]

Sorry Marshman, I have to disagree with you in one or two respects. If the film is entertaining enough, it will be watched by the very people who you think will not.

 

Also, if Mr. Potatohead believes those ferry chains can be navigated over, he will attempt to do so. if he is informed (again in an entertaining way) that he cannot navigate over them, he will tell everyone that he already knew that and only a complete idiot would attempt to do so.

 

The key word is "Entertainment" We all love to be entertained, even twits like myself, and there are only a few people who would watch something that was made to educate without entertaining. There are some, but they are in a minority.

 

There will not be many who watch "You've been framed" thinking it to be educational, but I wonder how many viewers see it and think "Oh, I won't try that then!" Certainly none who would admit it!

 

I don't know how much such a film would cost to produce, but if the result was a greater amount saved by the boatyards in repairs then it would be financially viable, and if it were to result in a reduction in injury, or even a life saved then... well... need I say more!

[Wussername]

Donald Rumsfeld stated:

We know, there are known knowns, there are things we know we know.

We also know there are known unknowns; that it's say there are some things we do not know.

But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know.

For the new holiday maker the broads are full of unknown unknowns.

Reedham Ferry is one of them.

Seen from a distance many could be forgiven for not knowing what it is.

Indeed would you be able to see the chain hazard which exists?

Would a CD help, I think not. Where would one start and finish.

There is a fourth, the unknown known, that which we intentionally refuse to acknowledge that we know.

How the holiday maker surviives defies belief...................but they do.

Perhaps having been scared by the Reedham Ferry they continue thier white knuckle journey anticipating at every bend in the River Yare the ferry at Buckenham, Surlingham, and Pulls Ferry in the heart of Norwich.

[Rincewind]

 

We have a number of innovative ideas for improving the transfer of knowledge to our customers

Sadly, Andy..I fear that, even if you were to resort to deploying an SDS hammer drill to transfer the knowledge, there are those who simply wouldn't listen. We've all seen the type I'm afraid.

 

No matter how 'idiot-proof' you make a system, nature simply designs a better idiot!

[LadyPatricia]

A very simple answer.

Most people we have met on our holidays have watched LR's (Robin) blogs. Hardly any have actually met him but most know who he is from his entertaining, informative and often funny blogs (the opening a tin episode springs to mind)

If I ran or owned a boatyard and wanted to get a message across I would be talking to Robin and asking if he, with his knowledge of putting a video together, would be interested in having a week on one of my boats (FOC) and in return could he make a short video of the perils that can be found on the broads which would then be placed on my website homepage and on YouTube. Obviously wether this would be possible would rest entirely on the fact that Robin would be willing to do it.

Both those new to the broads and those that return year after year use YouTube to find out what to expect on their upcoming holiday. Why not use it for some safety tips as well.

In the real world you will always get idiots doing stupid things but if such a video saved money for a yard, damage to a boat and potentially the loss of a life then In my eyes it would be worth it.

Steve & Deb

[marshman]

Steve and Deb - but would they watch it and take note? I do doubt it but thats just my view. Sensible people might but thems that crash into large objects do not fall into that category. Sadly.

 

Quite like the idea of a hammer drill - now that might work....!

[Mowjo]

Personally I don't think a DVD or anything else will work, when we go on holidays we don't want to waste time watching stuff, we want to get on with it, for hirers on the Broads I think most think it's only a boat, what can go wrong, lets get on with it, we moor at Broadsedge and always see Richo's taking the hirers out instructing them, 15 minutes later you see the same boat going hell for leather all over the place hitting banks and sometimes each other, I don't even thing a compulsory watch of an instruction DVD would work, it will be why are we watching this we only have the boat for a week lets get on with it, and for some it's why worry if we annoy others we won't be back till next year if we come back at all,and anyway it's not our boat! as someone who has sat through hundreds of inductions from ten minutes to four hours at Airports and Military bases, I can honestly say I've only learnt one thing, in the end it's just down to common sense, my motto is! "If in doubt! don't do it" you can have compulsory training before they can take a boat out, you can have DVDs, most people hiring or private don't need them, they use common sense, but like every walk in life you will always find that one that knows everything and the rules don't apply to them, as they say, make something idiot proof and along will come a better idiot to prove you wrong,,,