Broad Ambition - Underway on the H2O

[Mouldy]

13 minutes ago, grendel said:

When picking up the sailing dinghy at Herbert woods I used the boathook to catch the ropes as the staff pushed it from shore to save us doing a full stop to collect it.

Whilst there are benefits to having a boat hook on board, I do get concerned when inexperienced crews start waving the metal end near the gel coat on Norfolk Lady.  Perhaps the answer would be to equip hire craft with plastic ended boat hooks which would satisfy safety requirements, but not be as damaging if used indiscriminately.

[Mouldy]

9 minutes ago, grendel said:

 . . . . . . . . jewel 3 had issues crossing breydon and was limped into reedham with an escort, she is currently still at reedham as the HW engineers replace the gearbox, engine mounts and universal joint. We have heard the gearbox has been replaced, and the rest of the work is ongoing . . . . . . . 

Nothing minor then!!  Still, you need a little excitement when you’re embarking on a relaxing break on The Broads!! 😉

[grendel]

Broad ambition repairs completed, complete system rewired back to the bus bars. Jewel 3 reports repairs completed and heading for our next destination.departure from lodden immenant

[Mouldy]

7 minutes ago, grendel said:

Broad ambition repairs completed, complete system rewired back to the bus bars. Jewel 3 reports repairs completed and heading for our next destination.departure from lodden immenant

Where are you headed for, Peter?

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

I have to say that this is a good example of how a high resistance in a circuit, such as a faulty pump, can cause a fire in a circuit without blowing a fuse.

Fuses blow on a surge in amps, but a voltage trip will cut out when it senses the volt drop from a high resistance.

[Coryton]

10 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I have to say that this is a good example of how a high resistance in a circuit, such as a faulty pump, can cause a fire in a circuit without blowing a fuse.

Fuses blow on a surge in amps, but a voltage trip will cut out when it senses the volt drop from a high resistance.

Some years ago when working in a lab I smelt a very acrid smell.

I traced it to the fuse box.

It was a design where the fuse went into a carrier which then clipped into the fuse box.

Somebody had managed to get a fuse in without the carrier. It had worked for years, but eventually the contact resistance must have got too high and it acted as a rather effective heater.

 

[BroadAmbition]

Sunday 10th October 

It’s  been a funny old day, eventful to say the least. 
 

The H.W’ engineer arrived last night about 2000 to asses the situation on J3. He stated it needed a replacement:- gearbox, driveshaft coupling & four engine mounts. He assured us he would be back this morning to change everything over. Good as his word too he was along with an assistant. 
 

Meanwhile at 0700, electric smelling smoke was billowing out from the helm on ‘B.A’

Griff

[grendel]

We are moored for the night at beachamp arms.

[BroadAmbition]

Sunday continued

Bro killed all power both 12 and 240v

Hmmmm, off we go fault finding. It turned out to be the shower pump circuit. This is protected by a 7:5amp fuse but should have been a 15amp fuse,  my fault that as I didn’t upgrade it when our Robin purchased a replacement pump that would have sufficed for a bilge pump on a type 42 destroyer

The circuits and the now melted six gang fuse box made safe.
 

‘B.A’ and J2 sailed with three crew off J3 for our next Navplan at Loddon. At Loddon visited Lee (Capt Jack) and his chandler/ boat yard. Lee is one of ‘Our’ Woody boat owners group that meets at Beccles every year. He supplied us with a ten gang fuse block and ten metres of 25amp cable. We got set to. Pump off, cleaned and tested, switch gear on helm and in shower cleaned and tested. New replacement cable installed which was proper awkward. All to the good. 
 

Meanwhile  crews were either fishing or in t pub

We got word that repairs on J3 were completed so they would sail for Beauchamp and meet us there

Erm, not quite 

Griff

[Meantime]

19 hours ago, grendel said:

Currently jewel 2 and broad ambition moored at lodden, BA had a slight electrical wiring issue this morning, so has had the fuseboard replaced and the shower pump rewired. jewel 3 had issues crossing breydon and was limped into reedham with an escort, she is currently still at reedham as the HW engineers replace the gearbox, engine mounts and universal joint. We have heard the gearbox has been replaced, and the rest of the work is ongoing, several of her crew continued with us to lodden, and are happily fishing or visiting the pub.

Jewel 2 and I am anticipating the skippers orders, eg I heard him asking for the fenders to be deployed and the dinghy brought up front when I was 2/3 of the way around the boat deploying the fenders and heading towards the dinghy.

I would say that was a close shave there. Two lessons to be learnt there.

1. Always keep at least a couple of spares of each rating of fuse. It is so tempting when a fuse blows and you don't have the correct size replacement to put in a slightly higher or lower rated one. Things work and you remind yourself that you will purchase the correct size and replace it at the next opportunity and then a few months pass and it is still in situ and not properly protecting the circuit.

2. When ever replacing a component of the circuit such as a new pump, or light etc. Always treat it as a complete new installation. Check the power requirements of the new part. Check whether the current wiring is still sufficient. Check whether the fuse needs to be downrated or uprated to cope.

[Meantime]

17 hours ago, Vaughan said:

I have to say that this is a good example of how a high resistance in a circuit, such as a faulty pump, can cause a fire in a circuit without blowing a fuse.

Fuses blow on a surge in amps, but a voltage trip will cut out when it senses the volt drop from a high resistance.

I assume by voltage trip you mean the resettable circuit breakers? These do not sense voltage but like fuses are rated to trip once a certain current is exceeded, unlike fuses they can be reset. The main difference is that the way in which they operate to break the circuit does not generate much if any heat.

A trip is wired in series with the circuit which means it has no concept of voltage. To measure voltage or to sense a voltage drop or gain you need a neutral or earth to read the potential difference against. Therefore if a trip only has two wires, one in and one out it is only measuring current.

The main difference apart from the fact that a trip is resettable and a fuse blows and then needs to be replaced is their method of operation. A fuse is basically just a thin piece of wire sized to melt when too much current flows through it. Fuses will allow slightly more current through than their rating for a period of time and they will gradually get hotter which in turn increase their resistance leading to the eventual failure or blowing of the fuse. However the heat in the meantime can be a problem as demonstrated in the pictures above. Fuses really work at their best when a sudden short circuit occurs and they blow immediately. They are not so good when running consistently at slightly above their rating. Correct sizing of the fuse is important here.

On the other hand a trip generally works in one of two ways. Either a bimetallic strip that will bend as it gets warm and eventually will bend and break or trip the circuit. The actual contacts are rated far higher than the trip and therefore do not get hot and the bimetallic strip will bend at relatively low rises in temperature, certainly before it gets anywhere near hot enough to do the sort of damage you see above. The other method is a small electromagnet which is sized that once enough current is being drawn through the device the magnet becomes strong enough to pull the contact open and thus break the circuit. Again the whole process is relatively heat free.  

[Vaughan]

38 minutes ago, Meantime said:

I assume by voltage trip you mean the resettable circuit breakers? These do not sense voltage but like fuses are rated to trip once a certain current is exceeded, unlike fuses they can be reset. The main difference is that the way in which they operate to break the circuit does not generate much if any heat.

A trip is wired in series with the circuit which means it has no concept of voltage. To measure voltage or to sense a voltage drop or gain you need a neutral or earth to read the potential difference against. Therefore if a trip only has two wires, one in and one out it is only measuring current.

The main difference apart from the fact that a trip is resettable and a fuse blows and then needs to be replaced is their method of operation. A fuse is basically just a thin piece of wire sized to melt when too much current flows through it. Fuses will allow slightly more current through than their rating for a period of time and they will gradually get hotter which in turn increase their resistance leading to the eventual failure or blowing of the fuse. However the heat in the meantime can be a problem as demonstrated in the pictures above. Fuses really work at their best when a sudden short circuit occurs and they blow immediately. They are not so good when running consistently at slightly above their rating. Correct sizing of the fuse is important here.

On the other hand a trip generally works in one of two ways. Either a bimetallic strip that will bend as it gets warm and eventually will bend and break or trip the circuit. The actual contacts are rated far higher than the trip and therefore do not get hot and the bimetallic strip will bend at relatively low rises in temperature, certainly before it gets anywhere near hot enough to do the sort of damage you see above. The other method is a small electromagnet which is sized that once enough current is being drawn through the device the magnet becomes strong enough to pull the contact open and thus break the circuit. Again the whole process is relatively heat free.  

All good stuff, but the fact remains that a high resistance in a circuit will cause a fire without blowing a fuse, but that does not happen with a trip. I don't need to be John Ambrose Fleming to have noticed that before.

I was simply pointing out what had gone wrong on BA as I have seen it so many times before.

[Meantime]

10 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

All good stuff, but the fact remains that a high resistance in a circuit will cause a fire without blowing a fuse, but that does not happen with a trip. I don't need to be John Ambrose Fleming to have noticed that before.

I was simply pointing out what had gone wrong on BA as I have seen it so many times before.

But that is not strictly true. A resistive load will cause heat at the point of resistance for instance a light bulb is a resistive load and glows from the heat produced at the point of resistance i.e. the lightbulb. 

As Griff has already acknowledged the problem wasn't using a fuse, it was using the incorrect fuse rating for the circuit it was protecting. 

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but fuses are inherently safe if used correctly. Trips are generally more expensive and convenient because they can be reset. If Griff had used a trip rather than a fuse, then the inconvenience of keep resetting the trip would have led him to replace the trip for an uprated one of the correct rating for the new pump. However simply replacing the fuse for one of the correct rating would also have removed the fire hazard.

To expand further on what I'm trying to say, it makes no difference if you use a 10A fuse or a 10A trip, if you have a bad connection in for instance a spade terminal onto a pump that is providing resistance and therefore getting hot when you try and draw more than 4 to 6 amps, then the terminal will get hot, and possibly present a fire hazard, and neither the trip or fuse will blow.

It is equally imperative that all aspects of your electrical system are properly installed, maintained and regularly checked, especially in such a hostile environment as a marine one.

[BroadAmbition]

Andy (LondonnLad) on the phone:-

” It’s not gone well “

On departure the rudder full stbd, the hydraulic ram had sheered its metal bracket and was now free n easy on the hull deck with the rudder resting in one position.  Somehow Robin got them onto the bridge waiting pontoon. Now they were proper miffed, they were stranded on the opposite bank, could see the pub but couldn’t get to it as we had the flotilla dinghy with us on J2. Rang the engineer, indicator on, about turn. Sandersons tow boat to the rescue. HW’’s Mr Engineer couldn’t quite believe it. He’d been onboard six hrs already and now had this to deal with. He declared it needed a new metal plate and fibreglass matting that would be a Monday job plus curing time

Meanwhile ‘B.A’ and J2 diverted back to Reedham. We were discussing options as how to accommodate J3’s six crew between ‘B.A’ and J2 so we could continue with our Navplan then pick up J3 on Tuesday on our way back north.  The Jobsworth quay attendant informed us we couldn’t stay any length of time as we were now breaking the no return within 24 Hr rule. He got ignored. 
 

Now when breakdowns and issues occur, it’s the mark of how the yard deal with em. Mr Engineer on hearing our predicament girded his loins, disappeared into his van and emerged triumphant with some heavy gauge plywood then got set to yet again. He fettled it and once more we were all underway for the Beauchamp Arms. We were late on arrival but before sunset. The Engineer will visit us on Monday with a new metal bracket once he has made it in his Worksop. 
 

Respect and  gratitude to HW’s and Mr Engineer 

Griff

 

[Islander]

Going to do the repairs at the River Garden then or have you just stopped for coffee. 

Colin

[BroadAmbition]

Coffee? What?

get yersen washed  out with soap m water

Griff

[grendel]

Coffee, when berthed at a pub!

[grendel]

It appears the loose connection to the fusebox that overheated was the live side of the fuse, us a combination of other faulted components contributed to the issue.

[Coryton]

1 hour ago, grendel said:

It appears the loose connection to the fusebox that overheated was the live side of the fuse, us a combination of other faulted components contributed to the issue.

As so often with accidents it's not a single cause, it's a set of things that all line up in the wrong way.

Fortunately this time without too drastic consequences.

[Andrewcook]

 As to having Hiring Boats at the beginning of the New Season all Boats should all be  serviced act . As it's now nearing the End of the Season the Hiring Boats have taken a bit of hammering as I'm very sad to know Jewel 3 is giving a few Problems to which I hope it is all sorted out  and be trouble free for the rest of the  Ladd's 

[BroadAmbition]

Monday 11th October 

we sailed for Thorpe Green and th riverside Garden pub. Racing along would have put our eta too early to clear the bridge so it was a steady 4mph 6” to spare and we had arrived. 
 

The tides this week are all over the place with far too much water in the rivers, so we sailed for Norwich early, an hour n half early but we still got trapped by both bridges. 
 

So here we are now alongside at The Rushcutters pub for overnight. There are worse places to get stuck. This means Norwich tomorrow forenoon rather than sailing at 0700 for GYA and Stokesby. I’ll have to amend the Navplan and miss out Coltishall, which was always a tall order due to high river levels 

The HW Engineer called as promised and did a permanent fix. Dinner in the pub, then libations for 18 of us

Griff

[Andrewcook]

Hi all just to say the Boat just got Under Wroxham Bridge Monday as it 7 air draught the Wroxham Pilot say's  must get back to Wroxham Bridge by Tuesday midday to back under Wroxham Bridge  to continue back traveling through Horning please beware the New Inn is now Closed  going Under New ownership from November 2921 .

 

[Coryton]

2 minutes ago, Andrewcook said:

Hi all just to say the Boat just got Under Wroxham Bridge Monday as it 7 air draught the Wroxham Pilot say's  must get back to Wroxham Bridge by Tuesday midday to back under Wroxham Bridge  to continue back traveling through Horning please beware the New Inn is now Closed  going Under New ownership from November 2921 .

OK somebody has to say it.

2921 is a long wait.....

[Graham47]

3 hours ago, Andrewcook said:

Hi all just to say the Boat just got Under Wroxham Bridge Monday as it 7 air draught the Wroxham Pilot say's  must get back to Wroxham Bridge by Tuesday midday to back under Wroxham Bridge  to continue back traveling through Horning please beware the New Inn is now Closed  going Under New ownership from November 2921 .

 

The New Inn Facebook page says that it will be under new management from Wednesday 20th October and will be closed until the beginning of November.

[Smoggy]

10 hours ago, Coryton said:

OK somebody has to say it.

2921 is a long wait.....

They might even have haven bridge fixed by then, nah maybe not....