Plane crash

[andy]

As I said earlier you never know when you're time is up so enjoy it when you can 

[SueH]

Does anyone ever think of what would happen if an aircraft crashed on a busy motorway adjacent to a major airport such as the M4 and Heathrow. Or indeed fairly recently when the BA flight crashed short of the runway at Heathrow if that had come down even 1 mile earlier.

 

Exactly.   People appear to be far more sanguine, perhaps, about the sort of thing that could happen at Heathrow, which could cause far more carnage.

 

SueH

[dnks34]

Please feel free to correct me if I may be wrong but surely a 1950s aircraft carrying out Aerobatics over a built up area is a lot more risky then having relatively modern airliners above our heads flying non aerobatically.

I am not calling for any ban but surely any risk to the public is to much risk atleast thats the way I see it.

Lets not forget those who were killed where not even at the show so to say people are aware of the risk is a bit....well.....

The pilot obviously knew the risks but the people below him could not have been aware of the potential perril flying a aircraft in this way was exposing them to.  

Would a 747 on approach to Heathrow fly in aerobatically!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

However, Neil, as you ask, then yes, they are permitted.CAP 362 specifically says that a swept wing aeroplane must have a serviceable ejection seat.

The reporter you quote has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

Thanks for putting me right on that one John, obviously i was given wrong information. I was`nt sure myself, so that`s why i asked.

 

I`ve heard and read of many incidences where pilots put the innocent public before themselves, some where they know they have no chance of surviving. I can`t put into words what comes to mind when i`ve come across such occurances, purely and simply because i don`t know how to, although the two words "SELFLESS HERO" come to mind.

 

As for the the flame out, i should have used the word "possible" first,  Apollogies for that.

 

 

[Chelsea14Ian]

Sadly Accidents happen in life including airshows.Of course safety is always the main concern,and the risks are kept to a minimum.My thoughts go out to the family and friends of all those involved in the crash.Watching look East tonight,new safety rules will be in place,I am sure out of a very tragic accident some good will come from it.

 

Ian

[JennyMorgan]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/vintage_aircraft_displays_to_be_limited_after_shoreham_disaster_1_4206834

[JennyMorgan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_show_accidents_and_incidents

[Hockham Admiral]

What are you trying to say, Peter?

[JennyMorgan]

John, what I am, in a roundabout sort of way, trying to say is that perhaps the CAA, as reported by the EDP is right.

Some years ago Oulton Broad gala day included an air display. My wife, myself and little children were moored up well away from the flight path and enjoying the display when, to our horror, a light aircraft veered off course and headed straight towards us. No exaggeration but we could see the look on the pilot's face and he clearly looked as if he thought he was going to hit us, such was the eye contact. Thank goodness he managed to drop his aircraft into the water before he hit us, nevertheless he ended up only feet away and directly in line with us, indeed I could easily have touched the aircraft with my boathook. No way could he have cleared our mast, no way could I have cast off and started the engine. Would we have deserved to have been injured, even killed? We were moored well outside the display area and accepted that accidents do happen, but we never expect it to very nearly happen to us. We were really incredibly lucky. Mind you, I did make a few quid out of the photographs!

[dnks34]

Having quickly scanned through the Airshow Accident link its a miracle theres any pilots left to display the aircraft!  There does appear to be a quite a number of accidents.

I would be satisfied with seeing a particular aircraft at an Airshow just doing fly pasts at different speeds, is there really a reason to display these old aircraft aerobatically.  For me the engine noise is exciting enough without all the risk the aerobatics can bring.  

Obviously that idea wouldnt work out so well for the Red Arrows but displays over land or built up areas could just be about formation flying rather than the aerobatics which could still be carried out at any suitable venues ie away from built up areas, over the sea is perfect but maybe not so for a pilot I dont know. 

With the Harrier accident in Lowestoft the youtube footage shows just how quickly these things can occur, that pilot must have had nano seconds to decide to eject and he had no option as to where the aircraft would end up.

I use to live near Normandy Barracks in East Yorkshire and we frequently had the Sea King over our Village at low level (apparently one of the crew lived in the village) sometimes the winchman would stand at the open door waving as it flew circles over our  gardens.  It was a great sight to see but it used to make me feel quite uncomfortable, if anything went wrong it was pretty clear where it was going to end up.  Our street was often buzzed at high speed and low level when we lived there, harrier, tornado, a lone red arrow trailing smoke once, chinooks at night without their nav lights on, thankfully nothing ever malfunctioned but still, it can happen. 

 

 

 

[JennyMorgan]

Agree with DNKS.

Re that Harrier crash:

[TheQ]

Neither the 747 involved in the Lockerbie terrorist bomb or the brand new 737-400 involved in the East Midlands crash were built with 1950s technology

no the 747 is built with 1960s technology, first flown 1970, so its an over45 year old design, and the 737-400 is a design of 1964 first flown in 1967  updated in 1986 so a design of 20 to 50 years. Production methods will have been changed little as the aircraft has to get re approved.

[TheQ]

Of course Normandy Barracks were formerly known as RAF Leaconfield until 1977,  which until this year 2015 is where the Sea Kings Were based, it also still has a massive runway and two smaller runways. Hence the low flying aircraft. You live next to any military base you will get military vehicles / aircraft..

The harrier was brought down by the wrong type of gloves! The pilot was not wearing the correct type and they caught on a control and shut the engine down.

As pointed out on TV today more people die watching football than at air displays ((I know the numbers attending are vastly of different) come to that in many years more people drown in cars than when sailing.

Numbers / and risks can prove anything.

Flying straight and level at near  ground level, is not advise able near buildings. I worked on a base where a F111 went supersonic at near ground level, it broke equipment from walls!!

The hawk aircraft is a 41 year old design

[Hockham Admiral]

Having quickly scanned through the Airshow Accident link its a miracle theres any pilots left to display the aircraft!  There does appear to be a quite a number of accidents.

Obviously that idea wouldnt work out so well for the Red Arrows but displays over land or built up areas could just be about formation flying rather than the aerobatics which could still be carried out at any suitable venues ie away from built up areas, over the sea is perfect but maybe not so for a pilot I dont know. 

With the Harrier accident in Lowestoft the youtube footage shows just how quickly these things can occur, that pilot must have had nano seconds to decide to eject and he had no option as to where the aircraft would end up.

Danial, Hi

Compared with the number of pilots who want to/do aerobatics that list is a drop in the ocean.

Flying over the sea, unless you have a pretty good horizon, is far more difficult and demanding as it's only too easy to get disorientated if you're rotating at 300 degrees/second.

The Harrier pilot knew exactly where his aeroplane was going to end up as he had inadvertently moved the throttle away from the firewall!

[Hockham Admiral]

And finally, what about the Gnat crash at Oulton Park on 29th July..... and the Spitfire crash at Biggin Hill on the 1st August... this year.

It's said that things go in threes; so let's hope that's it for a considerable time.

[JennyMorgan]

And perhaps even more finally:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/seething_airshow_cancels_vintage_jet_display_after_shoreham_disaster_1_4207627

[Hockham Admiral]

Shall we call an end to it then, peeps?

[dnks34]

Danial, Hi

Compared with the number of pilots who want to/do aerobatics that list is a drop in the ocean.

Flying over the sea, unless you have a pretty good horizon, is far more difficult and demanding as it's only too easy to get disorientated if you're rotating at 300 degrees/second.

The Harrier pilot knew exactly where his aeroplane was going to end up as he had inadvertently moved the throttle away from the firewall!

oops! didnt know that!

There was a harrier in a grassy corner of Norwich Air Museum that looked a bit like it had been dunked, was it the same one I wonder?! 

 

 

[grendel]

It strikes me that this will end up as self regulating with the cost of public liability insurance for such shows rising, and maybe some extra conditions and clauses to prevent certain manoeuvres - even if the CAA don't ban them. We shall see what happens, and hopefully the pilot will recover in time and be able to remember the event and explain why it happened. Until then we are all just guessing.

That said, I was watching Herne Bay Airshow the other weekend, and we were comfortable nearly 3 miles away, and just under one of the muster points for the slower aircraft, the first world war fighter display formed up and circled right above us.  the only downside was the Vulcan didn't get as close to where we were at Seasalter as we would have liked, but we still saw and heard it.

Grendel

[JennyMorgan]

Great news for some:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/vulcan_bomber_to_fly_over_raf_lakenheath_1_4208430

[dnks34]

if we are lucky we might hear it!!

I may have mentioned before about it flying over Norwich Airport when we lived adjacent to it in Catton, ive never heard a rumble like it! I could feel it aswel as hear it, we used to get a few Red Arrows directly over our garden as they circled back to land after the fly past when returning from a show that they used Norwich as a base for, usually once or twice a year back then.  I used a scanner when we lived there so i knew when they were approaching! 

[BroadScot]

We hear and see the Red Arrows quite often here. They stop over to refuel before doing shows elsewhere.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKHAd_UfXL4

 

Iain

[JennyMorgan]

This is one crash that I forgot:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/wisbech_man_returns_to_the_scene_of_a_near_death_tiger_moth_crash_at_oulton_broad_1_4222109

No one hurt but in the short time that Oulton Broad had an airshow there were, it seems, at least two crashes. A few years ago now but not a great endorsement for air-show safety and vintage aircraft were younger then!

[Hockham Admiral]

This does drag on a bit, Peter............   

[lincan]

Hello All,

  Google map City Airport and see its' proximity to all the housing around it. Planes come in to land at the river end and take off towards the O2 and Canary Wharf. When it first came into operation, it was the STOLPORT [short take of and landing airport] and is sited on the old docksides. The planes were all props and it was something to watch the way, on landing, they would come along and virtually drop down onto the runway. Must have felt like being on the 'big dipper'! But the take off was just as good. The plane steeply rises and banks to the right, very quickly over thousands of houses. At the time of it's opening, there were assurances given to the airports neighbours regarding noise etc and the planes were props, but are now all jets. Not jumbos etc but much bigger than the old ones. Sorry to drag on, but my point is, although in the approximately 25 years that City Airport has been open, there haven't been any crashes, the risks must have been very closely assessed before allowing it to go ahead, but the risks must still be there. Apart from the surrounding population, there's also the possibility that a plane could come down in the river or the dock. 

Also, just been reading about the six people killed at a car rally in Spain when a car went out of control, lncluding a pregnant woman and eight year old child, the toll is expected to rise. l know it's in Spain, but will there be calls for rallying to be stopped etc?

Many 'experts' have been on the media with their thoughts on the tragic crash, but we do need to wait for the results.