JennyMorgan Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 Found this blog, abbreviated to remove adverts: . . . . . . . . . . . . of a very nice 37′ single screw motor cruiser whom had the misfortune to be photographed with a mobile phone camera at 4 + mph ? in a 4 mph speed limit.How you can possibly register the speed of a vessel on a mobile phone camera from the bank is beyond us but in the event !The Broads Authority decided to proceed to court with this case on the basis that the client was travelling at around 8 mph, despite the fact that the only evidence available were photographs taken with a mobile phone camera from the shoreDue to lack of magistrates amongst other factors this case went to court three times and at the end our client was found not-guilty on two out of three counts, but apparently ? there was sufficient evidence to support a case of travelling in excess of 4 mphThe fine for this major offence was some £ 200.00 however the legal costs involved were between £20-30K, with the Broads Authority share of costs being paid by you – All boat owners and waterway users on the Norfolk Broads. The Broads Authority were not prepared to see sense and ‘mediate’ and insisted on going to court with expensive Barristers and LawyersThe purpose of this blog it to make all boat owners aware that the current penalty for exceeding the speed limit on the Norfolk Broads & Rivers is nothing simple like a £60 fine plus 3 points, but is MEANS TESTEDConsequently you could possibly face a fine of several thousand pounds £££££££ . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Quote
Hockham Admiral Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 You know who are the only wrotten winners in anything like this, Peter. .... 1 Quote
Oddfellow Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 We have just received a terrible review on Facebook from a customer last week who we saw speeding past our boatyard with a huge bow wave. I called the customer's mobile phone and told him that it was unacceptable and that we would take the boat from them if this were repeated. Later that same day, the boat was again observed (by someone who saw it speeding earlier) going too fast (though not as fast as before). Again I called the boat. This time, there was mostly confrontation, so much so that their innocence was protested by them returning the boat to try and prove they weren't speeding. They were sent on their way again. We will ALWAYS report excessive speed to the vessel in question, and if they don't slow down, I call Broads Radio Control. If one of our customers is spotted by us, we call the boat first and foremost. Then Radio Control if necessary. I have no wish to spoil people's holidays, but won't accept misuse of the boats and disregard for the rules which so often are the cause of damage, injury and loss of enjoyment of other people's holidays. If anybody doesn't like this, please, don't get caught. Better still, abide by the rules which are there to protect everyone. All that said, wasting £20-£30k on a £200 fine is in nobody's interest. If anybody witnesses a Freedom boat being used in a fashion that is contrary to the rules of the river or dangerously, please report it to us - 01603 858453. 18 Quote
JawsOrca Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Although I think it's widely apparent my dislike for speeders (like Andy I will report any boat which I deem as speeding) I'm not convinced this story is 100% correct. I would be very very surprised if that was the true cost. I'm no expert in legal things but evenso those legal costs seem a bit steep. If true then its a serious potential waste of money should the BA have lost. Can anyone find anymore details out to prove this story to be correct. Quote
JennyMorgan Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Alan, it comes from a supremely reputable and verifiable source. Don't forget, it went to three hearings. The BA is increasingly taking on, and sometimes loosing, litigious cases. It has both the Thorpe Island and the dispute over the National Park branding in the pipeline, all potentially extremely expensive cases. Quote
JawsOrca Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 although I understand the need to persecute where required they shouldn't be putting themselves in such position which it could waste money like that.. tut tut BAIf anything ban the owner/boats from the broads (Or block them from hiring)..Although I guess such costs would do that anyway but there's better ways to apply justice. 1 Quote
marshman Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 And yet you all moan that the BA do nothing to stop speeding!!!! Methinks you cannot have it all ways - unless you want legislation to allow the BA to offer fixed penalty notices. Quote
JawsOrca Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Mr Marshman.. your latter constructive comment.. sounds perfect. Even further 3 tickets and your banned.. or 3 tickets and we will have you in court, at least the persecution should be strong and less likely to waste money and thus reduce the possibility of services being reduced the BA have wasted it on lawyers. Edited August 25, 2015 by JawsOrca 2 Quote
littlesprite Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Would a no tolerance policy on speeding (court action every time) stop people from speeding in the first place, if so money well spent. Quote
kfurbank Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 The problem with three tickets and your banned is that there is no way of doing this. You don't need a license to helm a boat. Would need a lot of new byelaws and legislation to implement.My other concern is that it is generally those with the deepest pockets who can afford the best lawyers that will pursue a case the longest, sometimes just for sport because they have the money and no other hobbies to occupy their time. I would hate to see a two tier justice system where those with the deepest pockets and therefore more likely the costliest for The BA to prosecute get off, whilst the easier targets are nabbed. This happens time and time again with Parish Councils bullied by the one or two most well off residents who know the council haven't the money to pursue prosecutions to the end. Quote
AEJB Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Unfortunately like all things there is an element of truth in Jenny Morgan's post. The only case I know recently that went to court 3 times was one I personally was involved in. May I say firstly I cannot give full details for obvious reasons. The case was called 3 times, the first time not all witnesses were available, the second time, there was a conflict of interests with one of the magistrates, a replacement Magistrate could not be found therefore another date was set. The case was then heard at the 3rd hearing.There were several witnesses for both parties, not just photographs. The BA would always require a lot more than just a photo to proceed.The owner was found guilty to the speeding offence, fined, with cost awarded against him. The fine is means tested, as are the costs.The fine and costs awarded in court came no where near 20/30k.However, if the defendant employs a barrister to work on his behalf, this can be very expensive and could quite easily exceed £20,000 bearing in mind 3 appearances were necessary.May I just remind you this may not be the same case. 2 Quote
Baitrunner Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 So for speeding they take you to court - whack a bridge and they don't seem too interested.Maybe there is stuff I don't know about bridge hits, but a vehicle hits a bridge and it normally requires an inspection before it's back in use. A lot more costly in time and effort for the bridge people, but I guess the boat is classed as something for the yards or private owner to deal with.OK speeding is inconsiderate, damages banks, can be dangerous etc, but unless this boat was blasting along and it was blatantly obvious they were speeding at an extreme velocity this seems well over the top. How do standard speeding fines work on the Broads? If you get caught by a ranger and issued with a fine? Was that not appropriate in this case?If I was caught and the Broads came to me with video evidence of doing 20mph in a 4mph and said we are fining you - a) I wouldn't have been doing this in the first place, b)If I was I would have known I was being naughty and c)I would have paid the £200 if I had been threatened with court as it was a fair cop.If it was say 6mph in a 4mph - would a little chat and warning not have sufficed? OK they are breaking the rules, but sometimes it is all that is needed. 5 Quote
ranworthbreeze Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 We have just received a terrible review on Facebook from a customer last week who we saw speeding past our boatyard with a huge bow wave. I called the customer's mobile phone and told him that it was unacceptable and that we would take the boat from them if this were repeated. Later that same day, the boat was again observed (by someone who saw it speeding earlier) going too fast (though not as fast as before). Again I called the boat. This time, there was mostly confrontation, so much so that their innocence was protested by them returning the boat to try and prove they weren't speeding. They were sent on their way again. We will ALWAYS report excessive speed to the vessel in question, and if they don't slow down, I call Broads Radio Control. If one of our customers is spotted by us, we call the boat first and foremost. Then Radio Control if necessary. I have no wish to spoil people's holidays, but won't accept misuse of the boats and disregard for the rules which so often are the cause of damage, injury and loss of enjoyment of other people's holidays. If anybody doesn't like this, please, don't get caught. Better still, abide by the rules which are there to protect everyone. All that said, wasting £20-£30k on a £200 fine is in nobody's interest. If anybody witnesses a Freedom boat being used in a fashion that is contrary to the rules of the river or dangerously, please report it to us - 01603 858453. Hello Andy,I think that is the correct stance to take and you should be applauded for your comments.RegardsAlan 3 Quote
MrPlant Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 So for speeding they take you to court - whack a bridge and they don't seem too interested.Maybe there is stuff I don't know about bridge hits, but a vehicle hits a bridge and it normally requires an inspection before it's back in use. A lot more costly in time and effort for the bridge people, but I guess the boat is classed as something for the yards or private owner to deal with.OK speeding is inconsiderate, damages banks, can be dangerous etc, but unless this boat was blasting along and it was blatantly obvious they were speeding at an extreme velocity this seems well over the top. How do standard speeding fines work on the Broads? If you get caught by a ranger and issued with a fine? Was that not appropriate in this case?If I was caught and the Broads came to me with video evidence of doing 20mph in a 4mph and said we are fining you - a) I wouldn't have been doing this in the first place, b)If I was I would have known I was being naughty and c)I would have paid the £200 if I had been threatened with court as it was a fair cop.If it was say 6mph in a 4mph - would a little chat and warning not have sufficed? OK they are breaking the rules, but sometimes it is all that is needed. Well said baitrunner Where has common sense gone, typical nanny state!Yes if they are doing 20mph throw the book at em, but for a little over have a word / small on the spot fixed penalty, if they persist, then proceed harder. Quite simple.If the yards explained to hirers there is an on the spot £... fine if you speed, I guess 90% of hirers would respect that. 2 Quote
Wildfuzz Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I get little lolly sticks held up to me saying "Slow Down" by the Broads rangers, I wave politely apologize if I was a little enthusiastic with the throttle and await the mickey taking from my collegues on Broads Beat. Humiliation always works as a punishment....... 9 Quote
Rincewind Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Throughout all the years we've been visiting the Broads, I have never understood why people feel the need to hammer about everywhere. It defeats the object of going on the rivers in the first place IMHO. Why not simply soak up the scenery, revel in the sheer delight of being afloat and chill out. The cardio-vascular system will definitely thank you for it. It would probably be fair to say that many of us have been a tenth or two over the speed limit from time to time, and I'm not condoning that error, but...some of the blatant speeding we see is beyond comprehension.Andy seems to have the perfect mindset as regards speeding on his boats and respect to him for that but... ring Barnes Brinkcraft with a report of speeding or idiotic behaviour, and we have done in the past, and you'll most likely get that "we coudn't give a flying, mate...we've got their money" response I'm afraid. Edited August 25, 2015 by Rincewind 1 Quote
marshman Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Why do people not read the posts? And yet seem so quick to criticise!!!Unless AJB tells me to the contrary, and indeed I may be wrong, but I did not think the BA had the authority to write out fixed penalty notices and that speeding cases have to go to courtAre you suggesting that the BA do not proceed with cases such as this and let people who wish to argue the toss get off scott free? If they were seen to do that then everyone would employ delaying tactics and any prosecution would be pointless. Whilst any court expenses soon mount up , the figure PW mentions includes a lot of "notional " cost and whilst it may have "cost" that, they would not have actually had to pay that in used tenners.No doubt all those who criticise would be happy to suggest alternatives and will point out how wrong i am too, but for what its worth, if you actually start a prosecution, and then suffer all kinds of delays, i still think you should proceed - sadly!!But then of course I know others will think otherwise and blame the BA for some aspect!!. 1 Quote
Polly Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 We waved down a couple of speeding boats on the Bure recently. The helms seemed to have no understanding of why we were signalling a slow down. 1 Quote
Baitrunner Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Marshman I do agree with you and my post was simply to maybe understand more. I agree if they have good evidence and the naughty person sticks two fingers up go for them and get the costs paid. Not suggesting they get let off but as with a lot of things we don't have all the facts I did actually think the BA Rangers could issue a ticket? Guess they then have to have hard evidence in court if you refuse to pay. Very complicated issue. Quote
BroadScot Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 What is they say Mark, Innocent till proved Guilty? Put another way, anyone know of a skint Lawyer! Seriously, I bet it can become very complex and complicated. Iain 1 Quote
JennyMorgan Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Unfortunately like all things there is an element of truth in Jenny Morgan's post. Andy, there always is, fortunately. Quote
JennyMorgan Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Andy, this is the preamble & date of the blog that I referred to, how does it stack up with the dates of your involvement?Speeding on the Norfok Broads & Rivers – Expert WitnessFebruary 23, 2015Speeding on the Norfolk Broads – Do Not Speed it is Expensive (# 738)A few months ago we provided Expert Evidence for a private boat owner of a very nice 37′ single screw motor cruiser whom had the misfortune to be photographed with a mobile phone camera at 4 + mph ? in a 4 mph speed limit. Quote
Wonderwall Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I am either missing something here, or the whole case has holes in it.Surely to be clocked by a device for speeding the said device must have been through a calibration test that day with a certificate of proof?a mobile phone does not surely fall into that category?speeding on the broads is a bug bear for anyone who has a passion for the place, but it's not always obvious to know what speed you are travelling at. The rev counter is only a guide as I am sure you are all aware.fair enough, if folk are going double the speed limit and throwing common sense out with the tide then a fine is in order, and if you have been warned a couple of times then you have no complaint. But to be fined for a small break in the rules is totally unacceptable and certainly not a selling point for the broads.I'm sure we have all been in the position where for one reason or another we need to get to our destination sharpish and a little lean on the throttle is required..going a bit fast, and reckless speeding are surely two different things ? 5 Quote
Wonderwall Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I agree that broads cruising is appealing for the slow pace at which you take things. Never being in a rush is the beauty.But it's easy to let your guard down occasionally , say when you have tide and wind against you and you change course and river you can have both pushing you along and before you know it you are unaware you have doubled your speed.Not everyone is concentrating at all times on holiday, and it's even been known for a whisky, wine or ale to cloud your concentration for a bit!The latter does not apply to me of course 2 Quote
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