RNLI on Breydon, again.

[Viking23]

As a private owner, I like many others, carry spares and tools to cover most contingencies. When we cross Breydon, we even slip on a small spare outboard to support our main outboard, in 25 years we have never used it in anger.

I would expect a lot of private owners would carry a spare fanbelt too, in addition to spare impellors etc.  Many would have the tools and know how to change them whilst some would carry them for an experienced person to change, just in case of poor availability. Hire craft don't carry these spares or any tools for safety reasons, so have to rely on external sources for assistance. 999 might be the only way.

However, the issue here is safety, and as I suggested earlier from my previous knowledge, and the latest report, that mud weights are unsuitable on tidal stretches, isn't it time boats were fitted with a suitable anchor. This would reduce the time that the vessel was vulnerable, and hopefully secure it in deeper water where support boats can rescue the crew if required, or secure a tow. 

If the rescue services were called out to several shouts at the same time, who would prioritise the calls? 

 

[MauriceMynah]

Viking, The problem is that if one were to use a more traditional anchor in say, Hickling Broad, it would do considerable damage to the bottom of the broad. perhaps even allowing ingress of sea water. Mudweights do little or no damage, making them the anchor of choice for the vast majority of the broadland system. I carry a small folding grapnal anchor, just enough to catch onto things in tidal rivers (private boats, sailing crafts rigging, that sort of thing) It is probable thgat inappropriate usage may well cause more danger and/or damage than they would be worth, so perhaps not best to equip novices with such items..

Edited September 20, 2015 by MauriceMynah

[Viking23]

MM, that is probably a good point, re damaging the bottom.

Sea water does leach in at a very low rate at the moment.

Explains why they can get away with Danforth like anchors on the river Trent, no risk of sea water ingress there lol.

I wonder if a longer rope on the mud weight will give a better hold, but in a panic situation, the crew might not secure the additional length of rope and could loose the mud weight.

With a dragging mud weight, the boat will still be heading into the current, as it should be being slowed down even a little, so steering would allow the boat to be moved from side to side, maybe to grab a post... or avoid one.

 

[Polly]

Two mudweights? We carry two. We also have a small grapnel but I doubt it would do much to hold Brilliant.

[marshman]

Correct Polly - two mudweights would work better - just make sure to secure the second to the first securely!!!

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

I remember a few years back when i was on one of Maffett cruisers boats, John told me about the new boat (sob) the BA were having re-fitted for use on Breydon. He told them back then that it was totally unsuited for the purpose they had intended it for, and that`s rescuing boats and crews on the mud, or in shallow water. And let`s not forget, SOB was never innitially built for broads use, but was originally for another customer who subsequently did`nt have it. So the BA bought it, then spent a lot of money changing things, but still it`s not really suitable for its original requirements. That`s what happens when you have beaurotwatts running a navigation authority.

[JennyMorgan]

If my memory serves me right the yard concerned offered the SOB at a discounted price but by the time SOB was modified that discount was effectively absorbed. 

[senator]

A mudweight is never going to do anything on the faster moving stretches, it relies on suction to generate hold and to produce this it needs to gently sink into the mud, that is not going to happen at 3 or 4 knots.

A suitable anchor on the other hand is likely to set providing there is sufficient chain available but on a broads boat where are you going to put 30m or 40m of chain? 

If the anchor is deployed by the inexperienced elsewhere then you are going to find a lot of boats tied to the bottom once the anchor has hooked under a tree root on a broad. You could try explaining tripping lines but if forwards and backwards is often too much I don't fancy your chances.

 

 

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

If my memory serves me right the yard concerned offered the SOB at a discounted price but by the time SOB was modified that discount was effectively absorbed. 

Absolutely so Peter. I believe it was lying in Goodchilds yard for some time after the original customer pulled out, so Goodchilds offered it cheap to the BA. They then commisioned some alterations, and now you have a boat which was then over budget, and not fit for purpose. Having said that, i wilfully stand to be corrected if that`s NOT the case.

[kfurbank]

It is very rare, but there have been times when crossing Breydon that it hasn't been that comfortable in a 12ft beam boat. There was one occasion when the wind was creating waves across Breydon which were directly on the beam and I effectively tacked to stop the roll and then turned back because I didn't need to be out there. The BA river launches have a far narrower beam and I suspect even more uncomfortable in a good wind. So if The Spirit of Breydon is such a mistake? what do the experts suggest would have been the perfect boat to patrol Breydon, in all conditions? cheap to purchase? cheap to run? would provide a good return on investment etc, etc.

Everyone's quick to criticise, I don't think I've heard anyone yet suggest a suitable or more suitable boat. I'm not asking for a wish list, the perfect boat only exists in dreams, but a real world example of what could have been purchased instead.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

 

My own personal opinion is something similar to the existing BA launches, but with a greater beam of say 12ft for increased stability in a seaway. It would laso have a single engine, big and powerful enough to push through a heavy sea, and strong enough to tow a boat off the mud in shallow water. It could be built using something like a Nelso 35 style hull, with a deckhouse having a small galley area, toilet and shower compartment and large open cockpit. SOB does`nt need the 2 massive engines it has, they burn far too much fuel, even at river speeds, so a single engine will be ideal for the broads. Also, with a single engine, it would give greater clearance below the waterline to enable it to get in closer in shallowing waters. The main thing is, it should be able to at least get under Yarmouth bridge. What do others think?.

[JennyMorgan]

 

My own personal opinion is something similar to the existing BA launches, but with a greater beam of say 12ft for increased stability in a seaway. It would laso have a single engine, big and powerful enough to push through a heavy sea, and strong enough to tow a boat off the mud in shallow water. It could be built using something like a Nelso 35 style hull, with a deckhouse having a small galley area, toilet and shower compartment and large open cockpit. SOB does`nt need the 2 massive engines it has, they burn far too much fuel, even at river speeds, so a single engine will be ideal for the broads. Also, with a single engine, it would give greater clearance below the waterline to enable it to get in closer in shallowing waters. The main thing is, it should be able to at least get under Yarmouth bridge. What do others think?.

Showers are available at the Yacht Station so wouldn't be an absolute necessity, other than that the above makes good sense. 

To my way of thinking the BA made an error of judgement in presenting the SOB as a Jack of all Trades because clearly she isn't, and can't be. A patrol boat, a rescue boat or a tow boat? Since other agencies provide tow boats and rescue boats then quite simply she needs to be a patrol boat

A patrol boat does not have to be under way all the time, having a mooring buoy well placed halfway along Breydon would mean that she's at most half way away from any potential problem, and reduce engine wear & fuel use.

As for the perfect boat, simple, a RIB, perhaps one with a lid like this one:

 http://www.c-rib.se/sites/default/files/styles/header__tabland/public/images/slideshows/slide1.jpg?itok=OqcNIoWH

Costs, no idea, but it would be a darn sight better suited to Breydon than the SOB!

[JennyMorgan]

Just a reminder re those TWO engines, picked up from elsewhere via Google :

Nanni 320 is a V6 6.42 litre 320HP.

At 1400 RPM (using approx 70 of its horses) it burns circa 20 litres per hour. At 3800 RPM which is WOT it uses circa 85 litres per hour.

It is an excellent engine (based on Toyota Land Cruiser) and for its size it is pretty frugal.

So tootling is going to cost circa £23 per hour but push the stick forward and it will be nearer £100.

If those claims relate to one engine then does it mean that onboard the SOB those costs are doubled?

I just wonder what fuel costs have been attributed to the SOB?

[JennyMorgan]

I have since found out that the above specification/fuel usage estimate is based on a single engine specification. I can not find a two engine spec but I doubt that costs would be twice that of the single engine. 

[Baitrunner]

If that really has a pair of 320s they aren't going to be running at 1400 to pootle around. Even against a full flood or ebb tide she would likely pull over 6mph at those revs. 

And whenever I have seen her she is just pootling around. 

I would think using the normal ranger craft at the extremes of breydon maybe one with a bigger lump at the Bure end and a fast rib moored at the yacht staton to aid in emergencies.  A pair of 50s on it would give it a good turn of speed and maybe enough grunt to keep a boat out of trouble until a tug could attend or carry a bloody great anchor to hold them. 

The idea of a couple of emergency tie off buoys also sounds like a good idea. And not too expensive. 

[Hockham Admiral]

It is very rare, but there have been times when crossing Breydon that it hasn't been that comfortable in a 12ft beam boat. There was one occasion when the wind was creating waves across Breydon which were directly on the beam and I effectively tacked to stop the roll and then turned back because I didn't need to be out there. The BA river launches have a far narrower beam and I suspect even more uncomfortable in a good wind. So if The Spirit of Breydon is such a mistake? what do the experts suggest would have been the perfect boat to patrol Breydon, in all conditions? cheap to purchase? cheap to run? would provide a good return on investment etc, etc.

Everyone's quick to criticise, I don't think I've heard anyone yet suggest a suitable or more suitable boat. I'm not asking for a wish list, the perfect boat only exists in dreams, but a real world example of what could have been purchased instead.

Thanks for those words, Keith.

Do we really have to go over all this again, peeps? 

Back in 2013 this topic (Spirit of Breydon) was quite literally flogged to death. 

Let's please, perhaps in this case , keep off BA bashing.

[JennyMorgan]

John, please don't just see this as BA bashing. It is a relevant subject for toll payers, it is us who pays for the excesses of the SOB. Granted that the subject was thrashed to death across social media way back in in 2013 and I don't suppose that many of us want a word for word rerun of those arguments so I agree that we should not just simply re-flog a thoroughly dead horse. 

However, subsequent events, obviously two seasons, have quite simply proven the detractors right. The minute the RNLI is called out it is inevitable that many of us will remember the spin surrounding the introduction of the SOB. It is, I'm afraid, inevitable that the arguments will rear their head again.

Edited September 22, 2015 by JennyMorgan

[marshman]

Quite agree John - this is turning yet again into a diatribe against the BA - there are many considerations which certain posters continue to overlook and I just cannot be bothered to comment on them all - yet again!!! Except say the recent events prove nothing at all and support no case either for or against!!

Its done and no crusade is going to change it now - perhaps we should have a special section for this type of reaction so  people can then just not bother to read them until there is really something new and important to say!

[Baitrunner]

Marshman - we are going to have a lot of posts in that new section!!

[JennyMorgan]

Marshman, whilst the past can not be undone, debate can bring forward ideas. On this I'm going to fly my own flag, yippee! The fuel and running costs alone have reared their ugly head, again, and quite obviously the way to contain these is to minimise engine hours. I suggested a buoy half way along Breydon at which the SOB can lay. Armed with radio, radar and binoculars the crew can keep an eye and and ear open for problems and casualties. Moored half along she doesn't have to travel anymore than half of Breydon. Patrolling, as she does, and sometimes as far away as St Olaves or Reedham, means that she may well be too far away from a potential casualty to be of any great help. Perhaps this eureka moment would never have surfaced were it not for this debate!  Personally I think it a valid idea, one that I shall forward to various member of the Nav Com in the hope that it can at least be debated in committee. If it is accepted, and it does release tolls for other tasks, then it will all be down to NBN!

[Hockham Admiral]

Has anybody used an anchor or mudweight, on the lower Bure or Breydon, or the river Yare with any success, I have read on other forums, that mud weights drag, and there is doubt, on an earlier post, that CQR's would hold, with no supportive evidence, in any case, so some must have used an anchor with some success, so which is favoured for throwing over the side in the event of engine failure?

Let's make sure we have the right safety equipment on board.

The only problem with throwing your mud weight overboard is that you may well then present your rear end to any obstruction or grounding. The stern gear is far more vulnerable to damage than the bows.

[Baitrunner]

I do believe the BA have been listening and are going to test this on Breydon. It wont go under the bridges, but then I don't think the bridges will stop it!

The fuel issue may well be solved in anything over a force8.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3243137/The-world-s-LARGEST-super-yacht-revealed-Russian-billionaire-s-260m-mega-yacht-300ft-high-eight-floors-underwater-observation-room.html

[Viking23]

The only problem with throwing your mud weight overboard is that you may well then present your rear end to any obstruction or grounding. The stern gear is far more vulnerable to damage than the bows.

True, I wonder if anything is written into the handbooks of hirecraft, 

What to do in the event of engine failure.

When moored up

When cruising on the river

When navigating Breydon water and the lower reaches of the rivers.... etc

Now this is tongue in cheek, but what about a huge red lever with a sign "Fine for improper use " blah blah... like on trains,  that when pulled  ejects the "warp core" or several hundred kilos of scrap iron, which when thinking about it... might as well be the engine lol... now that will stop the boat. Not to be used when passing under bridges lol...

[Baitrunner]

Viking that wouldn't work - some idiot would hit his head on it all the time!!

[Viking23]

Viking that wouldn't work - some idiot would hit his head on it all the time!!

Ahh yes, you never know... but if this happened, even the helmsman could leave his post to help, and the craft could run aground... Which would take some explaining...