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Liberty

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I was dealing in lamps (that is the term that some people call bulbs, but bulbs grow in the ground, lamps are a light source, that when you click the button on the wall they illuminate

 

 

Snap Donnygeoff,  35 years ago I was working for Osram lighting,  never specified a bulb,  only lamps.  Bulbs are best left to gardeners. :River Police (nearest I could find to a lamp ) :)

Edited by psychicsurveyor
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The Topdeck class was new in the lat 60s, but the Star Clipper class and all the smaller variants came out in the early to mid 70s, and were the only high top designs till about 79 when the Bounty 34 Sedan came out, along with the ideal 40. Then the Dawncraft Illusion came out a year later. There was a handful of high top designs, but not many. Now it seems there are hundreds of them, and getting more all the time. Every time we hired a boat, no matter who with or where from, it was ALWAYS a boat ORIGINALLY designed to go under ALL broads bridges at the time. All the boats we hired have`nt got any taller, but some of the bridges have got lower for various reasons.  Maffetts had 2 very nice high topped designs, but we never hired them because we wanted to go under all the bridges at almost all states of tide, and we hardly ever had any problems until a few years back. As i said, the boats have`nt got any taller, but some of the bridges HAVE got lower. In the mid 70s, there were a dozen high topped boats at most, and that was within around 2,000 hire boat. Now the number is significantly higher, with around 700 hire boats. The percentage of high top designs is dramatically higher, so it`s no wonder the number of accidents are getting higher.  However, with this in mind, i find it strange when fleet operaters start talking about increases in hire fees to cover the costs of accidental damage, when if you offered a fleet where all boats were ORIGINALLY designed to go under the bridges, Bridge accidents would be vastly reduced. You`ll always get those that will hit the bridges, but with a more focused fleet, the chances are minimul, and whatever accidents you get, will be down to the inexperience of the hirere.  It`s easy to blame novices with no experience, but sometimes, the operaters have to share some of the blame for not giving enough information when a particular boat is booked, sometimes by a complete novice.. I also think if a boat and its engine etc are properly maintained, there should be absolutely no need to worry about boats crossing Breydon or punching up the Bure against the tide.I`ve done it lots of times with no problems.

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I was a VERY BIG customer of Osram, From memory the top man in UK was David Schofield (that would be in the late 80's early 90's.....

Had a few freebies ( stay in the Savoy with a show, couple of outings to spain)

with Philips lighting I had washing machines, a fridge freezer and other electrical items

Ge Lighting (thorn as they were known) venice, rallying, go carting

Crompton, silverstone days, BTCC, Track days

They were the days

 

And yes bulbs are for those with green fingers.....

 

 

Edited by donnygeoff
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I was a VERY BIG customer of Osram, From memory the top man in UK was David Schofield (that would be in the late 80's early 90's.....

Had a few freebies ( stay in the Savoy with a show, couple of outings to spain)

with Philips lighting I had washing machines, a fridge freezer and other electrical items

Ge Lighting (thorn as they were known) venice, rallying, go carting

Crompton, silverstone days, BTCC, Track days

They were the days

 

And yes bulbs are for those with green fingers.....

 

 

What a small world,  David was my boss when he was an area manager,  i covered Kent and Sussex. He was a really nice guy. I think he climbed the slippery pole very quickly.  I worked for him between 1982 and 1984. I left to start my own company and still run it now,  I was never very happy having a boss :)

Edited by psychicsurveyor
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Do a search and type in crossing Breydon in the 70's nearly all the pics show Breydon at High Tide as do most of the pics I can find on Carols Broadland memories. Just out of interest why do you think its more dangerous to pass through a bridge on an ebb tide than on a flood tide and is either any more dangerous than passing through Reedham when the tides banging through? Also why do we appear to have more incidents now than in the 70's?

 

Dave

when I was working on a hire fleet back in the 70's and 80's there were lots of boats running aground on Breydon. In one week we had two aground out of a fleet of twelve boats. I know for sure they had both been warned of the hazard, because I had given them their trial run and part of my information was about the crossing of Breydon, tides, etc.

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Some interesting viewpoints, not sure I fully agree that higher boats are the issue though. Cars have been getting wider and longer for some time now but you don't see more people scraping their cars when parking because they allow for the extra size.

Perhaps to understand the advice about when to cross Breydon one has to understand the origin of some of that advice. When I first hired boats I was told how and when to cross Breydon and did just as we were told. There is no disputing that crossing Breydon at slack water is the most economical way to do so. The cost of our hire then included fuel so the profitability of that hire was directly affected by the amount of fuel we burned during the course of the week. It should off course be remembered that you also get a slack high water period, however that is most likely to lead to problems with bridge clearance. Going against the tide does also put a lot more strain on the engine, something I am prepared as an owner to do from time to time, but imagine if that same engine was being used week in and week out and thrashed against the tide by hirers, then you might want to discourage it. 

Mooring an hour away from Breydon, I often go down to Breydon for a cruise back and forth at any state of the tide with no intention of going up The Bure. As I'm not in a rush I will just take it very slow if pushing the tide. It is good to see Breydon when it is full of water because rather than a channel with vast mud banks either side, you get more of the impression of being at sea. However it is worth noting that during rough weather Breydon becomes noticeably rougher at high tide as the waves have more space to build and it becomes a lot more choppy. You have far more chance of a smoother crossing if going at slack low water.

I think everyone knows that the ebb tide can rip through Yarmouth at times, so if you approach Yarmouth coming down The Bure and you are on an ebb tide and you do not have clearance to pass the bridges, what are your options? Try and moor with the tide behind you? We have all seen how that can go wrong. Try and turn before the bridge? The one place I have never turned a boat and never want to is before Vauxhall bridge.

Factor in all the above and there are some fairly sound safety and business reasons for advising boats to cross at slack low water.

Having said all the above I now own my own boat and with the roof and windscreen down I only need 6ft6in clearance under the bridges which you still get on most high tides. If a slack low water crossing doesn't fall at a convenient time then I will then look at doing a slack high water crossing. For me this has a number of benefits. It means you do the lower reaches of the Waveney, or Yare and The Bure at high water and therefore get to see more than endless stretches of reeds. You can see for miles over the top of them. You get to see Breydon when it is full of water and in some ways a more interesting place. Finally it takes about 4.5 hrs for low water at Yarmouth to reach Norwich. A well timed high slack water crossing can mean that you end up just ahead of the turning tide for some time until you start to reach the middle reaches where the tide has less effect. So you get a economical crossing with a good view for most of the way.

Please note the last paragraph is written as a boat owner with plenty of experience of crossing Breydon and I would never advocate anyone not following the official advice on a hire or borrowed boat.

 

 

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Goodo, Donnygeoff. 

The problem is simple. There are plenty of people that get safely across Breydon.

And then there is a worrying number who don't. 

Those that don't cost the hire yard unacceptable amounts of time, angush, peril and money all because they couldn't follow the rules and instructions that are given to them to ensure that they remain safe. Increasingly, these fools are also costing the emergency services money too. 

Crossing Breydon at slack low water is the safest time to do it. MANY broads boaters are absolute novices and MANY repeat customers are absolute novices too. It is only a relatively low percentage of hirers who have real boat handling experience. The nannied state in which we live will one day run out of cotton wool in which to wrap the idiots of humanity, but as of today, we must continue to follow HSE guidance, local safety advice from the agencies that issue it and pass this guidance on to those which hire out boats. 

With the greatest of respect to any seasoned Broads navigator here, if you break down on Breydon, perhaps because you are punching a very strong oncoming current, there aren't many places to rest that wouldn't cause a great deal of trouble and a significant amount of potential danger for all concerned. 

 

 

Edited by FreedomBoatingHols
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Sound sense, Andy.

The one thing that overrides all others in my planning is to cross Breydon immediately after slack water low.

Because then I am on a rising tide and have a few hours to change that wretched impeller (yes, it has happened to us). I might also manage to tie up to a post (I did). Our propulsion chain is as serviced as often as most but things can go wrong.....

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........Crossing Breydon at slack low water is the safest time to do it. MANY broads boaters are absolute novices and MANY repeat customers are absolute novices too. It is only a relatively low percentage of hirers who have real boat handling experience........

.... if you break down on Breydon, perhaps because you are punching a very strong oncoming current, there aren't many places to rest that wouldn't cause a great deal of trouble and a significant amount of potential danger for all concerned......

Two quotes from Andy's good post that are right to the point.

Even as a now somewhat experienced owner, in my 200hp cruiser, I still wouldn't do a Yarmouth transit on a strong ebb or flood, because the single engine propulsion could suddenly fail near Bure mouth, and I'd rather drift in slack water than be sucked toward Haven or Vauxhall Bridge at 5 knots.

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Sound sense, Andy.

The one thing that overrides all others in my planning is to cross Breydon immediately after slack water low.

Because then I am on a rising tide and have a few hours to change that wretched impeller (yes, it has happened to us). I might also manage to tie up to a post (I did). Our propulsion chain is as serviced as often as most but things can go wrong.....

One important consideration is that when the tide is slack at the Yacht station, the flood (rising tide) has been running for about an hour.

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Ok all, I am one who checks tides, not just going over Breydon, but any where we are traveling on the Broads. As some of you know we have an Alpha 29 made in the early 1990 and our height is 8ft 6ins, so we all ways have to check bridge heights.

Crossing Breydon this September I had it right for the tide, but that was when we had high tides.We should have got under Vauxhall bridge going north with no problem, but at the last moment we had to lower the windscreen, because we only had a couple of inches to spare.

So yes, checking bridge height is very important, but also knowing the tides is just as important.

Regards

Marina :Stinky

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I'd love to see the HSE guidance notes on crossing Breydon Andy.

Andy didn't say specifically that there was HSE guidance for crossing Breydon.

What he did say, in the full original context, was:

"we must continue to follow HSE guidance, local safety advice from the agencies that issue it and pass this guidance on to those which hire out boats."

To me that reads as HSE safety guidance generally, and specific local safety advice about Breydon from agencies that issue guidance to hireboats.

Most people would take it as a given that the HSE is unlikely to focus on extremely localised advice on using tides wisely.

 

 

 

 

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Dave, since the Authority is involved and with it corporate liability, I am quite certain safety assessments have been made in regard to Breydon thus general H&S recommendations will probably have been followed. No bad thing really. Like you I enjoy the freedom to make a mistake but there are others that can't be trusted with that freedom.

That aside, we either keep non job holders and jobsworths employed or the unemployment figures will soar! We can't have it both ways!!

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http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/1415

This was posted elsewhere showing TheWherry Albion using the Ebb tide to shoot Haven Bridge.

How times and advice must have changed Strowy.

 

Davecheersbar

I suppose that if a boat has no brakes, and a following tide certainly doesn't, then I have to concede that going with the flow can be dangerous. However, why should using an ebb tide be any more dangerous than a flood? We are constantly being told to use the tide in order to conserve fuel thus these recommendations are surely contradictory? 

 

P.S. Great video of Albion, thanks Dave.

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I was dealing in lamps (that is the term that some people call bulbs, but bulbs grow in the ground, lamps are a light source, that when you click the button on the wall they illuminate

 

 

Snap Donnygeoff,  35 years ago I was working for Osram lighting,  never specified a bulb,  only lamps.  Bulbs are best left to gardeners. :River Police (nearest I could find to a lamp ) :)

Ah ha, NOW I know why I waited ages for our boxes of fluo lamps to be delivered, you pair were galavanting or such like all over Europe! :naughty:

 

cheersIain.

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Hello All,

 Libertys' original post says to convince hirers that there really is mud and that the posts are not just for decoration. As you may know, we had the misfortune to find ourselves on the wrong side of the posts on Breydon a few weeks ago. Sometimes there have been a few comments on this site and the other one that seem to suggest that the assumption is it's always through inattention, mistakes etc. ln some of the pictures that are shown, the mudweights have been thrown over.  Are there any numbers out there showing how many of those that get stuck are actually through breakdowns?

Just a thought, it's also been suggested there appears more incidents than in the 70's. l don't know about that far back, but for quite a few years past, boatyards were discouraging hirers from going south because of the 'dangers' and the possible consequencies going down to, and through Yarmouth. Having spoken with the bloke who owns the Stracey shop a few times in the past, he wasn't at all happy [naturally], and l believe he even had a meeting with some of the Fleet owners about it. Recently there's been a lot of encouragement for hirers to go and experience the south and all it has to offer. Could this be a reason why there are more hire boats going across Breydon than there used to be? 

Lastly, ls it my imagination or are most of those shown that go aground are the older type boats and it's the newer ones that argue with the bridges? 

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Well each of us is free to believe whatever we like on things like this.

My replies on this thread have been with a concern that inexperienced people maybe reading this thread might think it's clever to ignore the safety advice from the BA and the hire companies.

Whereas the art of boating and seamanship is to always be aware of tides and make use of them wherever possible.

 

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I don't dispute that Peter but the HSE were specifically mentioned (to give weight to the argument IMHO) and that is misleading, how long before sentiment becomes law and we see the B.A. stop people from crossing Breydon other than in the "Golden Hour"

 

Dave

Can't argue with any of that, Dave. I suppose that both Andy and the BA are trying to make Breydon as idiot proof as possible. 

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Dave, I agree with much of what you say, but what's better crossing at low water when it is obvious how shallow it is outside of the markers or crossing a couple of hours either side when one might be fooled into believing there is water all across Breydon. I would imagine you would need to cross Breydon fairly much on high tide to be able to wander outside of the markers without getting stuck on the mud. This has two problems, 1. the obvious issue for most boats of not being able to pass the bridges. 2. Not being able to see the various stakes that do stick up from the mud outside the channel.

Put very simply no one should venture outside the marked channel regardless of what they may see on Barton Broad unless it is as a result of a breakdown. To do see voluntarily is to risk grounding, or sinking your vessel. Once that it understood then surely it is better to cross at low water when it is blatantly obvious there is no water outside the marked channel.

I would actually put the counter argument that it is as a result of more people crossing a couple of hours either side of low water that has led to more groundings this year. For hirers from the largest base on the Broads they have to cross Barton Broad where many boats can be seen to venture safely outside the marked channel and frequently mud weight outside the channel. They then arrive at Breydon a couple of hours away from low water and it looks exactly the same as Barton Broad. Why then shouldn't they venture outside the posts?

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I think it all the more reasonably to suggest the navigation markers (or at least the majority on the main part of Barton Broad) be removed.  Further a 'tidying up' of the motley arrangement of markers around the Island where shallow water is.

Because the Norfolk Broads cannot be called a commercial waterway (to my opinion) anymore, do we need to have very differently coloured buoys and posts?  You have yellow sticks and red sticks, green, yellow and red floating buoys and then Green and Red channel markers - surely just have red ones where needed.  Be that to represent a channel to stick to, or avoid a specific underwater obstruction as I am pretty sure most people who hire do not readily understand the colours meaning.  I've raised this point before about there being uniformity across the Broads be it to signage or markers.

I must remember to scan and post the long letter I had in reply to mine some time back to the Broads Authority with regard to navigation of low bridges, posts on Breydon and signage.  Don't expect anything to change but at least they seem aware of the issues and are willing to consider some points I had raised which had not been considered previously.

What annoys me the most is the use of the R.N.L.I to go rescue these people - often it would appear the photos of the RIB that can get to the boats have been taken from Spirit of Breydon (judging by the colour of the boat and railings).  I know it is the latest thing to talk of 'multi agency co-operation' but I can't help but think having a RIB tied up at Yarmouth by the Yacht Station  would be better to use the Broads Authority money (and staff) to head out in that to get people off boats that are on the mud and only if there is likely to be risk to life (incoming tide which will breach the boat before it floats off) should the R.N.L.I be called to assist. 

I know it has all been said before, but seriously it could end up where people who have ventured outside of the channel and go aground and are not in immediate danger, are being aided by the R.N.L.I when a shout comes in of someone is difficulty off Yarmouth Beach (which would be an immediate danger) but the inshore team now have to stop what they are doing on Breydon perhaps covered in mud get back in the boat and head off for an extended response time from their location to then give much needed help.   I hope that does not happen to occur, but it might well.

 

 

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