Tolls

[JennyMorgan]

The overall drain on our tolls for overheads & expenses worries me. The government made a cut in its grant to the Authority, presumably expecting it, like other members of the NP family, to reduce its costs which the National Pikeman has not managed to do. Take the planning department out, for example, and that would reduce costs drastically as well as accommodation costs.

This is an annual debate. Much of what is being written is a rerun of previous arguments but the grim reality is that rather than fit the Authority to both its income and its duties within the Broads Act Dr Packman continues to hammer the toll payers and work outside his executive area. Enough is enough.

Edited October 15, 2015 by JennyMorgan

[littlesprite]

JP, the planning department should be charging a fee for applications and be self financing, we know that boats have to pay Tolls and therefor are self financing, the problem is other areas of the BA's  NP responsibility contribute nothing.

The NP grant has and continues to be cut back, will this shortfall be made up from all the above inflation Toll rises. 

[dnks34]

This may not be a popular stance but they say a toll increase is for restoration works above potter bridge.  What about those boat owners (which will be many of us) that have boats which cant even go up there, why should we take a toll increase for an area we could never  make use of.

What about lottery funding? Other projects seem to get it for areas closed off to navigation.  

In my opinion the BA will eventually criple the broads for both the hire yard operators and private owners.  Before they start taking more and more from the toll payers a look at their own spending should be carried out.  Are the ever audited? How much are they wasting each year, it could well be quite a lot. If the BA decided they want to dye the water bright pink who could stop them?

I dont want to appear selfish but every organisation a person can be finanicially connected always wants more more more.  As far as the BA go what have they been doing with the toll money they have been getting all these years.  

No im not likely to sell my boat as the increase on my toll isnt going to break the bank but another few years of increases may well do.  There comes a point where enoughs enough.  I feel for the hire operators whom increases must affect the most.

Ive said it before, there are other ways to generate more toll income without having effect on all those in the middle of the spectrum, or those trying to make a business pay. 

 

 

 

[Chelsea14Ian]

They said that old rubbish about 20 years ago.Now they want to build a garden bridge in London, nice for the tourists but we will have to pay

Ian

[senator]

Planning will never be self financing, if each planning application fee was large enough to cover the money wasted by any planning department then no one would be able to afford to build anything.

Tolls however are self funding, largely because a high percentage of the money collected involves providing no service at all, with the possible exception of an occasional bit of dredging, Effectively those that moan the most are being subsidised by those that aren't even there.

Practices that are largely supported on the forum, such as stealing money by refusing to allow the transfer of licenses from one boat to another when it leaves the system and a new one is bought in to replace it, rumours of another tax that seems to curry favour with the masses and would see toll levies being handed out by HP even though HP is directly attributable to speed, high HP boats use no more than those with low HP engines on the Broads. And the disgust that the BA may provide some sort of service by trying to ensure that Mutford lock works occasionally, against a worsening crises for sea going boats seeking passage from and to the Broads, where by the chances of a successful passage are dropping every day due to unreliable equipment at both points of entry. Are turning the trickle of seagoing boats leaving the Broads into a a bit of a flow. If the trend continues it will soon become a flood, leaving the "suitable" boat owners to fill the pot back up after the emptying of the largest contributors. 

The BA really do need to do something to stem the tide instead of increasing tolls further. I do hope the "Suitable" boat owners have deep pockets, or Mr I am the Broads Authority will find himself having to make do with Tesco's Value Bourbons with his morning coffee, and that would never do.

[jeffbroadslover]

Makes you wonder what would happen to the BA if the likes of Richardsons, Barnes, Faircraft and Herbert Woods were to decide pull out of Broads boat hire because tolls were too expensive and the extra costs could no longer be passed on to the customer.

What encouragement do the hire yards get to increase their fleet, whether that be building new craft or buying older ones from another yard?

Jeff

[JennyMorgan]

Senator, re Mutford Lock, I'm not advocating the closure of the Lock, far from it. Even at this late moment the Lock is still the property of Associated British Ports, ABP. There is a legal responsibility, an Act of Parliament, that requires that the Lock is maintained as a right of navigation, the Norwich Navigation Act. ABP also relies on the provision of pleasure boat moorings in Lake Lothing to help sustain the harbour. It is as much in their interests as the BA's to see that the Lock remains open. Whilst I would like to see the BA pull the plug on transferring the responsibility of the Lock from ABP I can see an argument for that being shared. Heaven forbid that the BA takes over the railway bridges but the argument for them to do that is surely no different to them taking on the Lock. ABP's customers, like those of the BA, and toll payers are customers, benefit from the provision of the Lock so why should the BA be insistent on taking on the whole burden in the toll payer's name? 

[imtamping2]

[senator]

I feel sorry for the hire yards as not many service providers would move for a 6.9% rise when there is no inflation.

That said it would be interesting to see the number of days that a typical hire boat spent on the river in any one year when compared to a private boat. I'm guessing that a hire boat gets better value from its toll than the average private boat, even after the multiplier is applied.

JM if a shared solution could be found it would be great. Unfortunately with the BA calling for a minimum of a 7 day visitors toll and restricting this to four a year there are not many who choose to moor saltside if they intend to use the Broads, Haven Marina gain more from the lock breaking and the railway bridge not swinging than they do if they are working, Once you are through the bascule bridge you have to stay somewhere if you can't get back onto the Broads.

I would go as far as to say the Railway bridges should also be put under the charge of the BA, given that they are the responsible navigation authority yet they have no control of bridges that obstruct it. The Ba should then be able to charge everything that the bridges cost to maintain back to network rail, along with an admin fee. OK train fares would be even less affordable but the bridges would work and the BA could join all the other companies milking the rail using public.

As far as the lock, the transfer agreement states that the lock is handed over in good order so they should take it, fix it then charge the repairs back to ABP.

 

[JennyMorgan]

http://aclepc.norfolkparishes.gov.uk/2015/09/24/broads-authority-public-forum-26th-october/

See you all there?

[dnks34]

I wouldnt be able to keep my trap shut! 

[JennyMorgan]

I wouldnt be able to keep my trap shut! 

See you there then!

[Guest]

.......I would go as far as to say the Railway bridges should also be put under the charge of the BA, given that they are the responsible navigation authority yet they have no control of bridges that obstruct it. The Ba should then be able to charge everything that the bridges cost to maintain back to network rail, along with an admin fee. .....

I light-heartedly suggested that I hoped the BA would never take over ownership of the railway swing bridges, I hope to God they never would.

If they did indeed take over responsibility for maintaining them and then were able to charge the entire cost back to British Rail , that would be absolutely fine, but I can't imagine the remotest possibility of that happening, there are so many other swing bridges over navigations around the UK.

 

[C.Ricko]

It is a real shame there is little or no understanding on the hire boat  industry and the benefits to the area, it will be moving disillusioned  operators closer to the decision to retire, there will be little or no progression as it is a way of life for most operators. 

We will be removing 15 boats this year which will need replacing by about 40 private boats. this equates to over 300 weeks on the broads which at average 6 people if eating one meal a day is 12,600 meals the 40 private boats if out for 3 weeks each is not in the same ball park by way of supporting the local economy.  

Leave the dicky works there, if the authority can't afford to move them then don't! 

 

Not inspiring news for any boat owner. 

 

[JennyMorgan]

'It is a real shame there is little or no understanding . . . . . . . . ' 

Says it all really.

 

[senator]

Maybe the Hire industry are missing a trick,

Have to ask you Clive as you voiced it, do you collect tourism data from your customers, by that I mean, meals eaten out etc.? 

We are not often around midweek but on the odd occasion we have been were amazed to see how many private boats are moving. even so I am sure that especially mid week the broads businesses would suffer hugely without the hire trade.

That said there does seem to have been a swing away from supporting local business as hire boats have become more comfortable, domestic and expensive. when we first discovered the Broads around 15 years ago it seemed the occupants of hire boats ate and drank in the local pubs and restaurants but as galleys have become more usable and the hire has claimed a much higher percentage of disposable income it seems more are happy to sit on pub moorings while eating food cooked on board and drinking beer from Tesco's.

We only see the South so maybe the North is different or it could be the perception is completely wrong and a customer survey would show that hire boat customers are eating in local food retailers every night.

To us on the South it appears that the majority of people eating in pubs are from private boats but if that is not the case the evidence collected in customer surveys could give the upper hand in negotiations regarding tolls for the hire industry.

[Baitrunner]

How do the BA tolls compare to other inland waterways for both hire and private boats? I am not up to speed on comparable costs?

I am going to assume the BA will think if you can afford a boat £20 to £50 a year extra for a private owner is  not really significant (how much do you spend on diesel when the price goes up). Maybe for a sailie it doesn't compare but I can't see £20 a year extra putting many off. 

I don't condone it, but everything else seems to be costing me more despite inflation going down!!!

How much extra a week would a hire have to add to their charges to cover the uplift? Is £10-£20 a week? Can't see that being a big deal? But then their other costs will be going up so overall a much higher cost per week for a hirer?

[senator]

I think Luke nailed it Mark, there is a point when all the little rises year on year when added together make a big difference. Let it go and next year is 7% on top of the 7% this year. 

From what I gather the Broads are one of the cheapest inland waterways but then they have no major cost for infrastructure that the others do,

If the BA talk about one lock everyone is up in arms, what would happen if they had hundreds of the things? I dread to think how much the toll would be then.

[Oddfellow]

Makes you wonder what would happen to the BA if the likes of Richardsons, Barnes, Faircraft and Herbert Woods were to decide pull out of Broads boat hire because tolls were too expensive and the extra costs could no longer be passed on to the customer.

What encouragement do the hire yards get to increase their fleet, whether that be building new craft or buying older ones from another yard?

Jeff

None. Zilch. Nadda. 

[Guest]

........From what I gather the Broads are one of the cheapest inland waterways but then they have no major cost for infrastructure that the others do,

If the BA talk about one lock everyone is up in arms, what would happen if they had hundreds of the things? I dread to think how much the toll would be then.

Exactly, Senator.

The Broads is indeed still one of the cheapest inland waterways to get a toll on, and yes, probably because they have had no major infrastructure overheads.

That's why their apparently over-enthusiastic adoption of Mutford Lock and the navigation markers on Breydon is a depressing portent of the future for toll payers.

The tolls could now eventually even out with areas like the EA eastern region, which have always been two to three times as much.

[Oddfellow]

Take a look at this for an illustration of the constant rises in tolls. 

These are the plaques from Song of Freedom - a Aston Seamaster 30. By no means a large boat. Sleeps 4+1. 

The increases from 2008-2009 season to 2013-2104 season are a shade under 27%. 

That is unsustainable in the longer term. We are getting no more for our money (less in fact), whilst our pay demands increase, our gas/electric increases, the cost of parts and consumables increases and our holiday demand remains relatively static. 

This just one hire boat with an increase of £178.35 over the period. Because the increases are in % terms too, most other boats rose by more. 

It is no wonder the revenues from hire tolls are decreasing. There is absolutely no incentive from the BA to introduce new vessels and the Green toll is an utter joke. 

 

[Lucky]

Are the BA just playing their usual game, though? Will they agree to a 3.1% rise in the end and you'll all think you've had a good deal? Does PacMan fancy himself as a sort of really crap Bernie Ecclestone?

Absolutely !!

[JennyMorgan]

Make no mistake, Packman has engineered it so about fifty percent of YOUR toll goes into his overheads coffers. He is spending a wodge on the Broads themselves in order to justify a rise in the toll, but that rise also makes up the reduction in NP grants. In the past manipulated inflation figures have been used to justify toll rises but with deflation that tactic is no longer viable. Has anyone been down to the Thorpe work shops? Spent money like water down there, vast amount of room created but why? Heavens sakes, the BA itself, minus the non jobs and planning dept., could easily relocate there! The more he spends on the navigation the better, it then justifies a rise in the toll which in turn gives him more to spend/waste at Yare House.

[Boaters]

This money comes from the BA pot  I would assume ,or could this be recovered . ?how much more can this drag on if it seems they are in the right ?                                      

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/thorpe_island_row_costs_broads_authority_90_000_1_4273717

[JennyMorgan]

Was planning consent ever given to change the mooring into something that is not a mooring? Just a thought.

The £90,000.00 cost has to be met, and as I have already written, about £50% of OUR tolls is used for overheads. The BA is overly keen to force its views on us, seemingly irrespective of costs.