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Tolls


RayandCarole

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......With all due respect Strow, just because one authority is much cheaper than another, it`s absolutely no justification whatsoever to increase costs if it`s not warranted. I think the comments regarding the Fenland locks etc etc is wholly irrelevant in relation to the tidal Broads.......

I didn't bring up the subject of Fenland locks, it was a reply to John's post on this thread on Friday at 4:52pm.

I was agreeing with his comments about the Fens being more expensive and having plenty of holdups to Navigation.

I would have thought that experiences of tolls and services from the BA's  neighboring water authority were completely relevant to a thread about Tolls, whether "tidal" or not.

 

 

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What is relevant in calculating tolls is costs, not what a neighbour charges. In this case the more the Authority spends on navigation the more they can hive off to spend elsewhere. 50% of a quid is a lot less than 50% of a tenner. Hence there are, or have been, some very expensive navigation projects, some being definitely overkill. 

Our toll should be based on reasonable costs, nothing else. 

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A simple analagy is the difference between the cost of a Jaguar XF and a Vauxhall Insignia Ecotech.
 Would you pay the same £40,000+ as the Jag for the £20,000+  much lower standard Vauxhall?, no you would`nt, because there`s a lot more to the Jag than there is to the Vauxhall, yet it is still a car with 4 wheels. The simple fact is, the EA has locks, tunnells, aquaducts, and a great deal more miles of waterways to upkeep, so why would you think it justifiable for the BA to charge an overly disproportonate rate for a license on the Broads?.

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.... The simple fact is, the EA has locks, tunnells, aquaducts, and a great deal more miles of waterways to upkeep, so why would you think it justifiable for the BA to charge an overly disproportonate rate for a license on the Broads?.

Not a simple fact at all Neil.....

There are no tunnels or aqueducts on the Great Ouse or tributaries of the EA's Eastern region waterways.

I think you must be confusing it with the Inland Waterways Trust, responsible for the UK wide canal system.

The Great Ouse and tributaries are 140 miles of navigable waterways and 23 locks, compared to the BA's 120 miles, and there are no Broads or lakes, just the rivers.

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Not a simple fact at all Neil.....

There are no tunnels or aqueducts on the Great Ouse or tributaries of the EA's Eastern region waterways.

I think you must be confusing it with the Inland Waterways Trust, responsible for the UK wide canal system.

The Great Ouse and tributaries are 140 miles of navigable waterways and 23 locks, compared to the BA's 120 miles, and there are no Broads or lakes, just the rivers.

 

My apollogies Strow, i thought the EA were responsible for all the canal network and the canal and river trust was a form of users group.

Edited by SPEEDTRIPLE
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My apologies Strow, i thought the EA were responsible for all the canal network.

No worries Neil.

When you get onto the Canal & River Trust's 2000 miles of waterways, you're really getting into big toll fees then.

...and yet the average toll payer can get far less distance out of them for normal leisure boating, due to the queues and waiting at the locks, now that they are crammed with far more boats than at any time in their existence.

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A simple analagy is the difference between the cost of a Jaguar XF and a Vauxhall Insignia Ecotech.
 Would you pay the same £40,000+ as the Jag for the £20,000+  much lower standard Vauxhall?, no you would`nt, because there`s a lot more to the Jag than there is to the Vauxhall, yet it is still a car with 4 wheels. The simple fact is, the EA has locks, tunnells, aquaducts, and a great deal more miles of waterways to upkeep, so why would you think it justifiable for the BA to charge an overly disproportonate rate for a license on the Broads?.

Ive kept quiet on this, but heres my two peneth worth. You pays road tax with quibbling that most of it doesnt get spent on the roads up keep! So why quibble about the broads river tax?. or how its spent. You wants your boat as luxury so just pay it like you do your car tax.

Charlie

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Larger yards, indeed, do have different expenses to worry about; though of course many of the smaller operator expenses are magnified but there are also benefits from scaling up if you have the capital to do this.

Many businesses have had to diversify to survive; look at farming and the diversification there...

This is why we are doing more and more private work (please, don't forget Kingfisher Boat Services when you want something doing to your boat). Without this, we would be dead in the water. 

Edited by FreedomBoatingHols
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......This is why we are doing more and more private work (please, don't forget Kingfisher Boat Services when you want something doing to your boat). Without this, we would be dead in the water. 

I've always thought that small boatyards would find private work far safer business-wise and more profitable than trying to run a hire fleet, as most seem to have done.

Far less capital investment, no toll fees, less staff, no damage waivers....

Broads boat private ownership has increased by a much greater proportion than the demise of the hire fleets, and owners are always going to need lift outs, surveys, antifouling etc. etc..

As so many hire yard bases have been lost to residential housing development, the survivors are prime riverside locations perfectly placed to service the ever growing private boat sector.

I would imagine your location at Norwich is particularly advantageous, with so few boat service facilities there now, (surprisingly).

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I think private engineering work is a tough business to make money in as well – when you think about it even if you have staff that operate on a ‘freelance’ basis you’ve still got to have premises to do the work at and pay the rent/bills and taxes that all comes with this.  

Then you might have someone who wants a small outboard serviced which is not going to bring much money in and you’d be looking for either lots of small ‘odd jobs’ that add up or getting a ‘juicy’ larger job such as a full re-paint or partial re-fit of a boat to be able to make some money but I’d hazard a guess even then you’d not have much actual profit.

Add this the fact that because you’ve got such overheads to pay and wages for decent engineers and the like in order to make a profit the hourly rate would be so high nobody would be willing to pay it so they ‘tick over’.  This, perhaps because of the Broads being very much filled with a mixture of craft many ex-hire and small boats unlike say Marina’s in Poole or Brighton where you will see a mix of boats of course but where there is a greater concentration of high priced boats and people with the money and wish to keep them in tip top condition with a lot less ‘make do and mend’ going on. 

As far as hire boats go,  I am surprised that it seems as fast as boatyards can build them, people are willing to hire them even if they are many hundreds of pounds more expensive than a more ‘traditional’ hire boat.  With this in mind it makes perfect business sense to build new – supply and demand.  

The above is great news if you’ve got the money, staff and physical capability to do this not to mention the fact you can then (if you so wish) sell off a boat or two from your older fleet meaning win win – customers will hire the new boat at a higher price and make some money off the sale of the older boats as well. 

But what of the small hire yard? Sure they might have less staff to pay, smaller premises and lower overheads but conversely they earn less from their fleet and when people appear to want the ‘shiny new stuff’ it even becomes harder to compete on price back to the fact they have no ‘buffer’ that a large yard does where you might be able to reduce the cost of some boats but keep the prices higher for the new ones thus cancel out any overall loss. 

Sadly though, this is the way it certainly seems to be going but I can’t see Tolls are the root problem and while it might be pleasant to have some relief for small businesses or a hire yard say with less than 10 boats can pay 50% less than a yard with 10+ boats  is that fair?  Money is still being lost by somebody and perhaps this is just the way the cookie crumbles with some winners and some loosers.

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Robin the big yards in brundall will cost you £60 an hour inc vat for an engineer. Privateers £20 to £40. 

They are all busy and not hunting for work so I reckon it's a fair market if you can get a name for yourself. 

In fact one of them has refused to quote me for what may have been a substantial piece of work and I am hoping andy can help me out. 

If your good and reliable there is buckets of work to be had. 

Sounds like a good option to diversify to me with little overhead if you work mobile. 

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......If your good and reliable there is buckets of work to be had. .....

That certainly seems to be the case with all the Broads boatyards I've ever had quotes from.

It's simply a matter of supply and demand.

The demand is plentiful, (over 10,000 private boats on the Broads and growing), and it is "captive" market, as the maintenance work has to be done locally, to all intents and purposes.

Build a good reputation and owners will beat a path to your door, and stay loyal too.

LBBY is a good example, when Jason took it on from Robert Paul over ten years ago, he built a loyal customer base, which is now still being served by his successors. They appear to major on private work and run a small dayboat fleet as sideline.

That may be a much safer option for small yards, being less at the mercy of unbooked weeks for a fleet with large fixed overheads and a very large capital investment tied up in them.

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My guess is that the Nav Com has, once again, been sold a bum deal. The BA executive asked for 6% and got away with 4%, you know who must have laughed all the way home. You would think that the Nav Com was being sold double glazing, it got 50% off, after the price was doubled in the first place!  Personally I see this whole unfortunate saga as showing a cynical lack of respect both for the toll payers and the Navigation Committee.

Openness and honesty wouldn't go amiss.  How much, for example, has the government's grant to the Authority been reduced? I wonder if that reduction is covered by a 4% increase in tolls? Perhaps, if people knew the truth, they they might be less inclined to object. These year after year above inflation increases warrant investigation. 

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Please correct me if I am wrong here but local authorities (the councils) publish details of Chief Executive's and other big wigs salaries usually to be found somewhere on thier website?  Im sure i have seen this on a few council websites over the years  anyway.

Do the BA do this does anyone know and if not why not!

 

 

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