Advice from those in the know

[Guest]

Yes Peter, I was wrong, getting it mixed up with the Scaffie, as you say.

The fact remains though, that the hull design has a very clean displacement "exit", with the transom at a shallow angle rather than vertical, and with very little of it immersed.

Very different from the blunt transom of the Norman 23, giving far less drag.

 

 

[LadyPatricia]

This is our transom on Lady P. As you can see there is a 'tunnel' that the saildrive is situated in forward of the rudder

 

[JennyMorgan]

The angle of the transom serves two purposes, one being to allow crew members to step off the boat and onto a beach dry shod whilst the second is to provide left when the boat is being beached or when surfing. In practical terms the bottom of the transom is submerged when under way, as the picture of the blue hulled boat shows. It does not act like a counter. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

.......In practical terms the bottom of the transom is submerged when under way, as the picture of the blue hulled boat shows. It does not act like a counter......

Submerged by about an inch or so, judging by the photos.....

A beautiful boat Peter.

 

[Hockham Admiral]

23 hours ago, Strowager said:

A lovely looking boat John.

But she had a true displacement hull, designed to push through the water as efficiently as possible at displacement speeds, rather than starting to try to climb up onto it, to achieve planing speeds, thus needing much less horsepower.

(and you had Sails as well, the best and safest  "twin power" arrangement possible)

Thanks, Strow.

She's also what the Yanks call a double-ender or has a canoe type stern. I believe that this also reduces water drag.

[LadyPatricia]

Update

it appears that the engine I've been looking at does not fit on our sail drive. We have a Volvo Penta 110s drive. Can anyone suggest a place to contact/look to find one that fits?

alternatively how much work would be involved to convert to an outboard? Lots of fibreglass I would think but just trying to way up our options. 

steve

[MBA Marine]

I would ask just how knackerd is your engine, tired but working?  plumes of black smoke and a bag of nails rattling round inside? or dead?  Do you really need the expense of changing now?

If it were mine and its still doing its job I would change oil and filters regularly and run it until it lives no more! pig to start? well it may be frowned upon but a wiff of easy start to get her running can give a engine years more life when a rebuild is not economic.

Lastly if you choose to remove and go outboard I would be happy to talk advise and quote you. 

[JennyMorgan]

Steve, my first reaction is to convert and I don't think it would be that hard. You then have two options, to create an outboard well, lots of work but not impossible. The second, and the route that I would favour, is an outboard bracket. It would also allow you to enlarge your cockpit. You might need to put a pad across the transom for reinforcement but that would hardly be a problem. Any glass work, as your boat is old, would need epoxy such as made by West.

[Guest]

Although Mark has a good point if the engine is serviceable or capable of an economic rebuild, I tend to agree with Peter's suggestion.

I'm very pleased with my Volvo outdrive, but saildrives have always struck me as being a halfway house with too many disadvantages.

They still have the need to change the seals regularly, yet they cannot be tilted up for shallow water or prop clearing. The really big downside though, is that they lose the outdrive's huge advantage of being steerable, just like an outboard motor.

Your Norman 24 hull was primarily designed for out board propulsion, so I don't know how much modified it was to take the saildrive, if that was indeed original equipment.

Indeed the tunnel under the transom in your photo does look a lot more than the simple small hole in the bottom that's normally required to fit them.

I'd certainly explore the possibility of converting to outboard, fibreglassing over old holes and cutting new are quite practical with GRP hulls.

 

[ranworthbreeze]

1 hour ago, MBA Marine said:

I would ask just how knackerd is your engine, tired but working?  plumes of black smoke and a bag of nails rattling round inside? or dead?  Do you really need the expense of changing now?

If it were mine and its still doing its job I would change oil and filters regularly and run it until it lives no more! pig to start? well it may be frowned upon but a wiff of easy start to get her running can give a engine years more life when a rebuild is not economic.

Lastly if you choose to remove and go outboard I would be happy to talk advise and quote you. 

Hi Mark,

If memory serves me correctly Steve started the topic where he was looking for advice on replacing his cracked engine block or having it professionally repaired.

Regards

Alan 

[JennyMorgan]

Now I know that it is the Volvo sail-drive & that Strow questions whether it was original or not, well, I did wonder! The clue, perhaps, is in the name, sail-drive, especially as there is no sail on a Norman! I can see the sense in in fitting a sail drive outboard but not a sail drive inboard installation, must be a nightmare to pull the boat out on a trailer. I have seen some hideous outboard installations on Normans as well as some incredibly ugly swim platforms. On the other hand I've seen some really clever, good looking ones, know which variation I would go for!! Just a thought, there are some incredibly able stainless steel fabricators in Norfolk. A bolt onto the transom combined engine mount and swim platform might be an attractive addition to Steve's boat. Could even have a fend-off rack built in, gas bottle store perhaps, all in all the potential for a very interesting project.

PS. these people might have some good ideas:

http://www.normanboats.co.uk/

[MBA Marine]

4 hours ago, ranworthbreeze said:

Hi Mark,

If memory serves me correctly Steve started the topic where he was looking for advice on replacing his cracked engine block or having it professionally repaired.

Regards

Alan 

Im up to speed now, I read through too quickly and missed that.

[LondonRascal]

Steve & Deb, on the point about the choice of engine I can't assist but it is good to see you've looked at these actual engines which, as I am sure you have found very little is shared, seen of them online.  It would be nice to know in time, how they perform, nose levels and so on because I believe they represent very good value.

[JennyMorgan]

As I understand it most manufactures aim to provide spares for an expected engine life of 25 years. Trouble is, if there was a weakness of design, then spares relative to that weakness will go first. I say that with some feeling, I had cared for my two Mercury engines throughout their lives yet both developed problems relating to their fuel pumps. Both over thirty years old, both otherwise perfect engines yet useless for a common reason, no more spares. Regretfully now dumped on the scrappy, it happens. At least with an outboard its a simple matter to screw a new one too the transom! 

[LadyPatricia]

JM you idea of having a stainless fitting fabricated is very interesting. I will make some calls during the week to see if I can find anyone local who would be able to do that sort of thing and the costs.

having spoke to Mark at MBA he has advise a 15hp outboard would be the one to go for if we intend to use her North and South. 

Steve

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, LadyPatricia said:

JM you idea of having a stainless fitting fabricated is very interesting. I will make some calls during the week to see if I can find anyone local who would be able to do that sort of thing and the costs.......

This google image search might give you some ideas of what could be achieved.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fabricated+stern+platform&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMI35P5_tGAyQIVQs0UCh0s3QtQ&biw=1454&bih=778&dpr=0.9

Peter's idea of combining it into a protective bumper and stern access platform makes it a very useful add on.

I had one constructed myself a few years ago for an outboard powered cruiser, by Marineweld at North Walsham. They did an excellent job, in highly polished stainless steel, though it did cost around £400, about 10 years ago. It was far better and more substantial than the small and flimsy ready-made stern platforms though.

[LadyPatricia]

Strowey, do you have any pics of the one you had made?

 

steve

[MBA Marine]

Do think about the ability to tilt the outboard, bolting it to a fabricated bracket is easy, but it does need to be far enough off the transom to tilt and near enough to be able to reach the engine from the cockpit to tilt it.  It will look a bit daft if you need an extra long shaft (sail boat style) with engine bolted high for it to operate as it should.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LadyPatricia said:

Strowey, do you have any pics of the one you had made?

I'm still trying to find a photo of it Steve, but in the meantime here's one that is very similar, though mine didn't have the sitting tenant.

My one had a large square hole in the centre section for the outboard to tilt up.

The outboard was conventionally mounted to the transom of the boat, but I'm sure it would be easy to modify the design so that it mounted on the platform itself, and still had sufficient room to tilt. You'll probably need a long shaft outboard in any case, giving approx 20" of height from the top edge of the mounting point down to the surface of the water, (rather than the 15" of a standard shaft, rarely used on motor cruisers).

 

[JennyMorgan]

Looking through Strow's link I do think that this one gives an idea of what could be achieved:

 http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/attachments/img_0265-jpg.212377/

I am aware that bathing platforms can and do get caught under and over quay headings when stern moorings on the Broads so some sort of 'side' could be useful, not least as a corner to prevent the platform going under anything whilst adding a grab rail.

By the way, 15 hp is good.

[JennyMorgan]

A spot of Googling found this page:

http://www.egyptian.net/~raymacke/TG/Bracket.html

For me this is a realistic DIY project and this link gives some good pointers.

[Guest]

I've done a bit more Googling too.......

Pictures one and two show a very similar unit, possibly ideal for your boat, with twin side platforms and a central motor mount, maybe it could serve as an idea to show to a stainless steel fabricator.

Picture three shows the original equipment stern extension used on some "Shetland Boats", like their "Family Four", quite an elegant solution, bolting on to the transom. They may not sell it as an accessory though.

 

[LadyPatricia]

Thanks Strowey, much appreciate your time spent looking for a good solution. I've also used good old Google and there are some very nice looking and well engineered fittings but I've also seen some real nasty looking jobs. 

Still not sure which way we will go to resolve this engine issue but all ideas are gratefully received 

 

steve

[JennyMorgan]

Strow's picture One looks ideal to me, nice one. The box idea I posted added waterline, like a fixed trim tab, but that No 1 idea is simple and relatively good looking.

[JawsOrca]

I really don't like the idea of outboards hanging of the back of a swimdeck for the broads.. with all the stern on moorings (which you can't avoid) it's an expensive accident waiting to happen.. and I can't really see any benefit consider the costs of making the steelwork strong.. and then having to pay extra more mooring fees... (My folks first boat (shetland 4+2) had it and erm the outboard had battle scars

The saildrive is all original.. god knows why they did this but it was probably at the time when volvo were given them away. It is a really bad idea on this.. but it's sadly what LadyP is stuck with.

If the new engine doesn't fit on that saildrive and/or the saildrive isn't in a brilliant condition (It's probably ok), hen I think it's a matter of glueing the hole out and going down the outboard route but I'd say just do something (almost original) like:  

http://www.canalscape.net/Dont%20Call%20it%20a%20Barge/Cruiser%20Diversity/LR%20Norman%2027%20CP.jpg 

 And then putting two albeit flimsy stern decks each side of it (and a couple of fenders) to protect the outboard.. (the transom will need a chunk of timber to reinforce it and a well made around it inside (which can be done in ply just to stop splash back.. You would obviously get alot of deck space back.. but don't forget outboards aren't cheap but selling the leg could pay for a decent second hand one)..

Poor LadyP.. she will float again soon though