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I think we have moored on a tip!


Wussername

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Dave, that is exactly how it was explained to me. Interestingly the bins here on River Green are labeled 'No Boat Waste' so the hire boats can't use them( but they do) but I could use them as my waste is domestic. I don't need to as we have 3 very large waste bins on the island anyway, 2 general and 1 recycling.

Dave, do you know if this reclassification was due to an EU directive on waste or have I been misinformed?

 

Colincheers

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Just been sent this! So I'm going to blame the EU and the councils will use it as their excuse.

Colicheers

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2012 No. 811

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, ENGLAND AND WALES

The Controlled Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2012

Made - - - - 12th March 2012 Laid before Parliament 15th March 2012 Laid before the National Assembly for Wales15th March 2012 Coming into force - - 6th April 2012

1.—(1)These Regulations may be cited as the Controlled Waste (England and Wales)

Regulations 2012.
(2) They extend to England and Wales.
(3) They come into force on 6th April 2012.

Interpretation

2. In these Regulations—

“the Act” means the Environmental Protection Act 1990;

“Directive waste” means anything that—

(a) is waste within the meaning of Article 3(1) of Directive 2008/98/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council on waste and repealing certain Directives(e); 

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Some good points going back and fore here, I'm stuck with this domestic/trade waste between Dave and Ray both have good points.

As I see it the waste produced on a hire by me is not classed as trade waste away from the yard, now if the engineers comes out and puts a new filter on the engine that's classed as trade.waste.

Now from my training as a environmental auditor one point made was if you go buy a fast food item ie big burger (no names) and then drop the burger box 100 yards down the road the shop can be pulled for it. So none of your waste has been given by the yards you've collected it from the shop on route.

Now I'd wouldn't be happy have my council tax lifted to cover the cost of waste from boaters.

The checks I have to do to follow a item or waste produce at our head office sites I look after till it gets to the likes of Dave's sites is unreal.

I'm stuck not having my Enviro paper work (joyfull reading) at home so can't read up on it.

 

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Siddy

As I stayed previously I am commenting no further on the trade/ domestic waste issue

but re council tax the small amount it costs to provide bins for tourism in general in Norfolk is far outweighed by the income generated by  businesses selling to tourists this generates rates/tax that helps reduce council tax

Norfolk is a beautiful county I am sure we all agree and tourism is one of if not it's primary source of revenue and employment

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

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So ALL rubbish is trade by that definition as apart from garden waste it has been supplied by a commercial third party??? On two occasions now I have seen that a big burger supplier send a litter picker out to clear a road verge and in the other case a nearby beauty spot carpark!

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just to throw another spanner in the works,

if i carry trade rrubbish in my vehicle i have to have a waste carriers licence,found this out when fitting windows, all brick   rubble etc we created had to be returned to base to put in our skips, but ,we had to have a licence to carry it back to base.

if this has changed dave will no doubt point it out

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Siddy, any waste you generate while on your hire boat is classed as trade waste!!!

e.g. You come to Thorpe in a hire boat, you moor and go to the cafe and buy two coffees and a couple of cakes. You sit on the benchs on the green and can then dispose of them in the bins provided. Had you taken them back to your hire boat and drank and stuffed yourself in the cockpit you cannot then get off your boat and put them in the bins.

Now if you buy your boat and come to Thorpe, or anywhere, you can consume your coffees etc on the green or on your boat and lawfully use the rubbish bins....but the council won't like it!

Colincheers

 

added note ...I wish I could type as fast as you lot

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'Waste carriers licence' is right. On this if I take a working fan to another site for them to fix a unit this is ok but to return the faulty item back you need to fill paperwork out because this is now transfer of electrical waste WEEE. This is then stored till we get enough together to trasfer to waste site and it's all logged.

Dave thanks for the pdf link will read it a bit later.

 

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So it would seem that according to the BA document that the Local Authorities have decide that all boat waste is to be classed as commercial unless the boat is Residential! I'm glad to see that they are resisting taking responsibility for this and passing on the cost to toll payers.

This is not going to be resolved over night so it's up to us how much waste  we are going to cart around. Food wise I've always repackaged stuff for the fridge/freezer, I can get more in. Beer in cans canbe crushed when empty and a litre bottle of gin goes a long way, tonic in cans. Dry goods quite often come in cardboard packaging which you can feed your failing BBQ with the remaining plastic can be kept to an absolute minimum hopefully to one small rubbish bag. The hire boats can all dispose their rubbish at other federation yards.

Its all to easy to create waste.

Colincheers

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Hi Dave, reading below it could be argued that a private vessel has no classification  but further down it has the usual 'cover everything else clause' as trade waste. So I was right in as much it's the EU that are to blame:naughty:

goodnight all

Colin.....Zzzzzzzzz

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I'm sorry but the solution is simple. As Dave has pointed out the law is the law there's no point in arguing over it... Solution: BA need to provide services and charge a fee (I would prefer to it separate to my tolls fee - "waste collection fee") to cover the cost to them (to BA at cost though don't make a profit from it please). Hirer fleet I guess should pass this on separate. Why the BA because they are in the position to charge the users. (Sue the locals taking advantage). We don't want to pay more but tough the EU are making us so we have to. I'd rather pay a few quid more than see rubbish and dead affected wildlife floating down the rivers. So come on BA sort it out.

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13 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

Solution: BA need to provide services and charge a fee 

And how is this fee going to be levied and collected?  Who is going to be charged?  How are they going to be made to pay? How will fairness be established in any payment system?  

I  live in Norfolk and have a small boat on the Broads.  Any rubbish I generate I pack up at the end of the day and take home with me, and put in my domestic waste bin.  Will I have to pay to dispose of the rubbish generated by big hire cruisers holding up to a dozen people? (Which, incidentally, is what I have been doing, through my Council Tax payments to NNDC, for the past 'n' years!)

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Firstly I am not sure it is an EU directive but we should not blame everything on them - it really is the councils responsibility and why effectively should we pay twice?

Easy solution that is though - stick it on the tolls. More mooring places needed - landowners and the EA should give up their responsibility for the banks and stick that onto tolls too. Where will it end??

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Bobdog. Fair point but you shouldn't have to take it home in an ideal world. Your boat is separate from your place of residence and thus services should be separate. If like me you are not local and those who travel from overseas they can't always take it home. I see a charge applied in addition to ones tolls. Simple.

Marshman. It ends were it needs to end. 

What's everyone else's solution heads in the sand and ignore it? Councils do a u turn. Lol as if!

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In 1975 I had a temporary job driving a black cab for Welles Taxis - and great fun it was! Hackney carriages in the City were still required by law to carry a bale of hay and a bucket of water, for the horse. But did we?

Who was it said that regulations are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men? Laws may be changed, by due process as and when they become out of date or inappropriate.

One way or another, if the Broads are to remain beautiful and attractive to tourists then the bins must blasted well be emptied! That at least is clear.

I have said elsewhere that this is what the Broads Society should be engaged in. They should be our voice to get this sorted out. If they are no longer a loud enough voice then we must form another, for the opinion of the populace to be noticed.

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Are we arguing (sorry, debating) the right thing here? I do wonder!

Is it trade weaste or is it domestic waste?   no.. No   NO! That isn't the point!

The problem isn't what the waste is, the problem is that the designation/definition (call it what you will) has been changed by person or persons unknown. the simple solution is to change it back.

If this is an EU deirective, then throw it back at the EU as unworkable.

The bins should be re-instated and emptied as before, and continued to be emptried until a workable solution is found.

The right bins were in the right places. the bins were not the problem. Who empties them and who pays is the problem, but it isn't OUR problem.

So how do we proceed? Civil disobedience? Perhaps a month of fly tipping might be the answer I don't know, but certainly writing to relevent councils and MPs might be a start.

 

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I have no idea about the legal duty of councils or classification of waste, however, the waste has to be dealt with and cost needs to be found.

If mooring at Acle, South Walsham, Beccles or any of the other chargeable moorings, it seems logical that the people charging the fee should provide the service. When hiring a boat, the hire company should provide a facility as part of the package. Private boats who pay for a home mooring should have facilities provided by the company/individuals who charge the fee.

with all of the above facilities paid for by the people earning a living out of boaters, the council who also gain fast financial benefit from boating should fill in the gaps.

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Surely MM has made a very valid point - it is not our problem , people are elected to deal with the issues that us common folks are deemed incapable of understanding

The broads is a tourist destination and common sense tells one of the need for waste facilities - regardless of all the legal points being made

The cost of fly-tipping is well understood ,yet still the morons in authority remove bins BEFORE any workable alternatives have been found

Personally I would cut off the hands of fly-tippers , but is anyone really dense enough to think mass fly tipping will not now occur?

The Hockham Admiral made a very valid point , in that many private boaters will not be willing or able, to put up with this ridiculous situation and have to reconsider their future on The Broads

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The idea of adding even more to the toll is a nonrunner. The vast majority of boats are privately owned and are used for a few weeks per year and as many weekends as can be managed. Most will have access to a skip in th yard thy rent their mooring from and only occasionally will need to dump rubbish when away for a week or more. Much better to pay for what you use other wise the occasional user pays for the big user. My other boat,Lady Linda, has not left our mooring in Thorpe for over a year because we are completely refitting her. I already pay for rubbish collection here so why should I subsidise the big waste makers.

pay for what you use I say.

Colincheers

 

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Payment aside , is it not simply about the practicalities of the Broads just becoming a dump?

Many people will dump anywhere and in a short space of time it will be safer to stay at your home mooring than risk disease on the rivers

The previous system worked reasonably well and should never have been altered until something workable was in its place

Everyone can look at it from a personal angle but ,is the condition of the place we chose for recreation not more important ?

 

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58 minutes ago, littlesprite said:

I have no idea about the legal duty of councils or classification of waste, however, the waste has to be dealt with and cost needs to be found.

If mooring at Acle, South Walsham, Beccles or any of the other chargeable moorings, it seems logical that the people charging the fee should provide the service. When hiring a boat, the hire company should provide a facility as part of the package. Private boats who pay for a home mooring should have facilities provided by the company/individuals who charge the fee.

with all of the above facilities paid for by the people earning a living out of boaters, the council who also gain fast financial benefit from boating should fill in the gaps.

I clearly had a double brain fart with this post, started by putting it in the wrong thread, then compounded it with writing South Walsham instead of Salhouse. :blush:

 

I'd best go for laydown.

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We can continue to debate who is responsible for boat waste and keep going round in circles or we can start lobbying (as Hylander has already done) for someone to actually take responsibility for sorting the problem out. To my mind the BA is the 'guardian of the Broads' and that might be a good place to begin. The Broads Society also need to show some interest, as do the NSBA. Local councils and MPs have been mentioned but, unless we pick up the baton, nothing will be done. I have no doubt this will be a long battle and I am going to start with the first three on my list. Come on folks, pen to paper, fingers to keyboards or whatever, we MUST do something! 

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17 hours ago, Islander said:

Just been sent this! So I'm going to blame the EU and the councils will use it as their excuse.

Colicheers

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2012 No. 811

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION, ENGLAND AND WALES

The Controlled Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2012

Made - - - - 12th March 2012 Laid before Parliament 15th March 2012 Laid before the National Assembly for Wales15th March 2012 Coming into force - - 6th April 2012

1.—(1)These Regulations may be cited as the Controlled Waste (England and Wales)

Regulations 2012.
(2) They extend to England and Wales.
(3) They come into force on 6th April 2012.

Interpretation

2. In these Regulations—

“the Act” means the Environmental Protection Act 1990;

“Directive waste” means anything that—

(a) is waste within the meaning of Article 3(1) of Directive 2008/98/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council on waste and repealing certain Directives(e); 

And this is what tha 'EU directive' is about!

"

The EU Waste Framework Directive provides the legislative framework for the collection, transport, recovery and disposal of waste, and includes a common definition of waste (PDF, 81.3KB, 11 pages) . The directive requires all member states to take the necessary measures to ensure waste is recovered or disposed of without endangering human health or causing harm to the environment and includes permitting, registration and inspection requirements.

The directive also requires member states to take appropriate measures to encourage firstly, the prevention or reduction of waste production and its harmfulness and secondly the recovery of waste by means of recycling, re-use or reclamation or any other process with a view to extracting secondary raw materials, or the use of waste as a source of energy. The directive’s requirements are supplemented by other directives for specific waste streams."

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/waste-legislation-and-regulations

 

The bunch in Government voted for by just 24.9% of the electorate have chosen to apply certain 'add on ' clauses - as is often the case !!

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How about this then.  I have just received the email back that I sent to Brandon Lewis as a Demon Failure I think they call it. I took the email address from the Conservative web site.

 

Fear not,  I will write a letter to the Houses of Parliament with his name at the top.    We will see if that comes back.

 

 

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