mmm, sounds expensive! or not?

[Guest]

We have found a little "issue" with our new boat, I suspect we have identified the fault but could do with some fresh thoughts.

The engine is a Volvo Penta D3 deisel coupled to a pents S1 leg, both were fitted brand new in 2004 and have done 235 hours in total, we cannot find any record of it being serviced so we assume it has not been and is booked in for a service this week.

The engine starts first time, runs very smoothly and quietly and seem quite happy pottering along just above tickover, the temperature guage is steadt but only reaches around 50 degrees c, this is confirmed by the water temperature within the calorifier which is about the same, she is pumping plenty of raw water and an inspection by removing the oil filler cap shows plenty of oil circulating.

We have found that at normal river speeds she appears to be operating normally, however on opening the throttle after a few seconds the inspect engine light comes on and the alarm sounds, we of course shut off for fear of damaging a £11K engine.

The alarm still sounds after the ignition is turned off and then turned back on, the computer does its engine checks and still sounds the alarm annd the warning light flashes even before the engine is even started!

The oil level is fine but is thin and dirty for the engine and power steering, water level is fine on the sealed system and as I said earlier its pumping plenty of raw water and the engine temperature has not altered in any way.

After some gratefully received assistance from the guys at Loke Marine Services who just happened to be passing we limped back at tickover speed back to our moorings again no smoke, overheating or unusual noises other than the darn alarm. I cannot thank you enough for all your help and assistance and hope to get the opportunity to buy you guys a pint sometime

after discussing with a friend of mine over the phone this is his theory, feel free to add your own input, he suggested that it could be the oil pressure bypass valve, either faulty or operating due to a blocked filter, when demanding more power the oil pressure increases if the filter cannot cope with the increased pressure the valve will open allowing the oil to circulate unfiltered protecting the engine but the pressure switch would show reduced pressure as it is the filter that provides the back pressure, sounding the alarm, until the oil has thickened a little by cooling the valve is staying stuck open, he suggested, letting the engine cool a while, which we did, restarting the engine, which we did (alarm still sounding) blipping the throttle a couple of times to increase the oil pressure, which we did, (alarm switched itself off)

Now it was allready booked in for a service at Sutton Staithe or I would have asked Loke Marine to do it but I am sure I can find a way of rewarding them for their invaluable assistance but would love to hear the inputs from anyone who can add some ideas / thoughts or who has had a similar occurance with thier boat

[Antares_9]

Is the engine EDC or EVC Dave?

[Guest]

Sorry Dave I do not know! I left all the papers with the boat in case the mechanic needs to reference them, the engine is a 2004 Volvo Penta D3 160 coupled to a Volvo Penta S1 outdrive if that helps at all,

[Antares_9]

The reason I ask Dave is that the EDC “fly by wire†is a lot less complex than the later EVC and yours could be either. In both cases I would strongly advise you to take it to a Volvo Penta dealer as only they have the equipment and experience to interrogate the onboard computer systems which will show precisely what the sensor fault is and which sensor is causing it straight away. Anybody else could well just be stabbing in the dark or using standard time consuming fault tracing methods and wind up costing you more than having it done by the right people. This is not a BMC 1500 or Perkins 4108 we are talking about here and wonderful for purpose those engines are, the VP D series is a far more complex piece of kit more akin to a modern car engine and a laptop and the correct software and training are often more of a requirement than any spanner or screwdriver.

[Guest]

We will see if its service sorts it out and if not VP dealership can see if they can sort it, Ahh those were the days, My son has just finished his modern aprenticship in Automotive engineering and today they seem to know even less about traditional diagnostics than I do! they seen to depend more on OBD systems which tell them which part to replace rather why it needs replacing and whether it can be repaired and if the the obd does not cure it they are lost! I know, I have a range rover!

When are we going to get a throwing wallet in river smiley!!

[Antares_9]

I still believe it should go to Volvo for even a service Dave, there is one particular fault that shows similar symptoms to what you describe that non Volvo mechanics may be unaware of i.e. OK at low speed but inspection light on cruising revs. The air filter if not of the correct modified type can collapse and choke the engine causing a fault code to appear. It's fine when not pulling large volumes of air but soon collapses when called upon to do any real work.

[pks1702]

It could be down to a lack of service (or not)

As David has eluded to D Series are pretty advanced beasts.

It could be dirty fuel or even water both these will I understand put the EVC engine into 'limp' mode.

[Guest]

David, do you think the equipment and expertise will filter down into non-dealership circles? I only ask because my (excellent) back street garage that I use for all our car needs now posses many of the same diagnostic units that the dealerships do. Take Vauxhall, for example, the diagnostic kit they needed for that cost them over £5k and then they had to pay to train the staff in the use of it as well but because they will increasingly have to deal with management faults on computer controlled engines (like my Vectra) it is really a necessity that they learn to take on these things.

I realise the situation is not exactly the same with boats but it will slowly head that way and there are enough VP units around that a lot of business could be lost as the D series engines start to age.

[senator]

Simon,

My son's Fiat Punto stopped working one night, the AA came out and couldn't fix it so we had it towed to the the local auto electrician. This chap supposedly has all the kit which for a little place Impressed me, has bosch diagnostics along with Sun System generic diagnostic machinary, you can understand how happy and reasured we were to know that, after testing, there was absolutley nothing wrong with it except that it didn't work.

My sister used to work for Bosch automotive and looked up a mobile mechanic with all the kit in the area so we gave him a ring, 3 faults were identified instantly and a hidden fuse that was making and breaking in the fuel system was replaced, no more problems.

The initial chap had in fact invested heavily but had then not followed through on the updates that are regularly issued for this computer wizardry and as such had lost his bosch approved agent status, so it is just not the kit itself, it has an ongoing cost and ongoing training commitment to go with it.

Ian

[Antares_9]

Indeed Ian, it’s the training and updates that are needed just as with all systems, I doubt that many people will ever get the kit needed Simon, the volumes are just so different to the automotive world making it far more expensive per unit. That said, there are already proprietary diagnostic programmes available for Merc & Volvo EFI petrol engines as the volumes of those engines across the pond make it more sensible when the amortisation brings the unit cost down.

Where's that Volvo bloke Neil when you need him?

[Guest]

just had a call from Peter the new guy who has joined them at Sutton Staithe from Broom's he picked the boat up and did a test run on sutton, alarm sounded just as it did with me,,,,,the alarm stopped as soon as the boat was trimmed, it sounds like its the "out of trim" alarm that has been sounding which actually makes sense as the trim indicator said TRIM on it rather than degrees of trim the other day but I did not associate the two. and I do know that the trim indicater is connected to the alarm as all the guages are as I did find the wiring diagram on the wiring diagram so will keep updating and will welcome any input good or bad!

Any way service is under way and the bathing platform is being extended as we speak, some extra grab handles for us chunky types who are not too good on our feet, ship to shore reconnecting, fuel guage fixing, horn fixing and gas struts fixing to the arch to make lowering and lifting a little more controlled, I have just down loaded the manual from the Volvo Penta website and will be absorbing that over the next few days.

Hopefully I will find a reference to trim alarm! and I can stop worrying! ,,,,,,,,or maybe not!!

[senator]

Dave,

Do you not have a limit switch on your leg that stops it being lifted beyond about 7 degrees unless you push the trailer button?

Would have thought you would only get an alarm if you had gone past this limit. All sorts of nasty things happen if you drive around with the leg up but surely you would have noticed this from the handling?

Ian

[Antares_9]

Begins to sound more and more like operator error................. Dave??..............................

[senator]

Dave, thinking back to your new boat thread, did you not say that you hit bottom on the way back to your moorings? legs are designed to kick up but they wont go back to where they were, did you reset it?

Ian

[Guest]

Will be reading the owners manual tonight! All a big learning curve going on here, my wife says I am a typical alpha male in that I dont read instruction books until I break something!

The leg guage shows show your +/- degree of tilt but not sure whether its the boats attitude or the outdrive as this apears to alter constantly with speed, but does change when you adjust the trim, the guage indicates a red light and yellow light which shows the maximum extent of the travel when raising and lowering, yellow being downward and red being upward, in addition to this depending on where the outdrive is a text display shows a beaching position, the guage is connected to the alarm. once the alarm sounds the word TRIM appears in the guage but I had not related the two as, a buzzer and red triangle with an exclamation mark (international sign for this is expensive) was distracting me

I have been travelling about with the trim gauge showing around the zero mark as I do not have another point of reference but as I say this is contantly altering so could the measuement be taken from the boats attitude in the water rather than the legs attitude to the boat?

Hence when accellerating, bow rises, gauge says need to trim after a few seconds of not doing it the alarm goes off! bit like a nagging wife saying "do it now" and does not go off until you bring the boats attitude back to a stable attitude

You dont get this with Bounty Buccaneers you know!

I suspect Dave, you are right, operator error.

[Guest]

Hi David

well least you dont have to look for 11k for a new engine least thats over with.

I hope all the problems get fixed soon & you will be enjoying the new boat.

Jonny

[Happy Jax 3]

Will be reading the owners manual tonight! All a big learning curve going on here, my wife says I am a typical alpha male in that I dont read instruction books until I break something!/quote]

Yes, this does sound like operator error, the only advice I can give is the same advice I give my technicians at work when they keep asking questions.

R.T.F.M. (Read the F*****G Manual)

Glad it is nothing to serious Dave. For future reference when I had Volvo Penta's I used a guy called Peter Saunders of Northgate Marine based in Beccles. I always found him very helpful, accommodating and charges very reasonable. Contact Number Tel. 01502 584193.

[Antares_9]

Sounds like auto trim Dave, the onboard sensors try to inform you to keep the prop parallel to the surface of the water as this is the most efficient attitude for it. You may even find a button that sets it in full auto and it will then correct its attitude automatically. Mmm, there’s a feature that could be a useful fitment for some people.

[Guest]

just read the manual! the fault code it displays, red triangle with exclamation mark and continuous alarm is the shallow water alarm, or depth warning according to the manual but that should turn itself off once its back in deep enough water for more than 5 seconds, which it does not appear to do unless you re-trim, but there are also 2 switches unmarked so they could be the menu switches for the computers

there appears to be several instrument pack options including a screen option with the auto trim etc which the previous owner did not seem to opt for but we will have to investigate wether it can be added at an affordable cost as it adds fuel computer, trip meter and all sorts of goodies that I do not have at the moment.

hoping for some more info from SS boatyard when the service is done and they have done there own bit of investigating but thanks for Pete Saunders details I will keep him in reserve if needed.

[RedRover]

Will your boat be ready in time for the southern meet dave?

[Brian]

Will your boat be ready in time for the southern meet dave?

so long a he reads the instructions ! it will be..

[Antares_9]

there appears to be several instrument pack options including a screen option with the auto trim etc which the previous owner did not seem to opt for but we will have to investigate wether it can be added at an affordable cost as it adds fuel computer, trip meter and all sorts of goodies that I do not have at the moment.

The are quite expensive if you buy in UK Dave, they can be sourced in the States for about 1/3 of European prices, if it is EDC rather than EVC they are a bit cheaper. I went a different route and tapped into the J1939 bus on the ECU and fitted a converer to NMEA2000 which then allows you to use non Volvo connectors and instuments which are a bloody fortune

[goodall_m1]

the onboard sensors try to inform you to keep the prop parallel to the surface of the water.

Parallel or perpendicular?

Parallel pointing straight up or straight down wouldn't give a lot of forward motion would it.

Martin

[Antares_9]

Parallel or perpendicular?

Parallel pointing straight up or straight down wouldn't give a lot of forward motion would it.

Martin

No, prop thrust parallel to the surface of the water, straight up or down thrust from the surface of the water would be at right angles or perpendicular

[goodall_m1]

Ah thats better. Prop thrust parallel, which means prop itself perpendicular (you missed the thrust out on the earlier post!

A few more years of this and I might even understand motor boats.

I've always wondered what a trim tab actually does...

Martin