Battery Issues - A Quandry

[dnks34]

I'm sure I've read into battery warranties somewhere before and a battery manufacturer supplying a 4 year guarantee with a battery isnt necessarily going to give you a new replacement battery if the battery goes duff at 44 months old.  

I believe they will take into account the 43months fault free service and give you a pro rata financial contribution towards a new battery........but I could be wrong. 

[JawsOrca]

P.s halfords branded batteries are Yuasa.. even the leisure ones. We have been using them for years on boats and cars and they have always been good. 

[Viking23]

18 hours ago, FreedomBoatingHols said:

Griff, 

For the record, soldering terminals on a boat is contrary to BMET regulations. Solder joints are liable to fracture through constant vibration. Fractures lead to arcing. Arcing leads to heat build up. Excessive heat leads to insulation break-down and this can lead to fires. 

Use Crimp terminals only. If you are using choccy blocks anywhere, only use those with tangs gripping the cables; never those that screw directly down to the cable (as it causes a major stress on the copper and can easily fracture).

 

Andy

 

 

Some people tin the ends of wires, ie solder the ends, and then put them into screwed clamp connections, this is bad practice, as eventually the soft solder flows and you get a poor connection.

For some time now, I have been getting good service from boot lace ferrules, they slip over stranded wire, contain any loose strands, and take screw connections well. you can flatten the ferrule when on the wire with a pair of pliers, this holds the ferrule in place, until assembled.

They come in most sizes, and come in several colours, and some take multiple wires.

This is what they look like..

[Guest]

I never solder large gauge wiring.

The heat sink effect of heavy gauge copper wire greatly increases the amount of heat required, making it very easy to damage or shrink the insulation at the sheath butt.

I prefer to always crimp and then cover the ferrule of the eye with two staggered layers of heat shrink, running a few mm back along the cable, to give stress relief where the individual cores emerge from the rigid grip of the ferrule.

I never use chocolate block connectors for anything permanent, only testing.

[Oddfellow]

A lot of yards do use Multicell batteries and there are plenty that don't too. 

We stopped using Multicell batteries more than three years ago because of a disagreement over warranty replacements.

The turnover of batteries at a hire operation is huge. Don't blame running engines on battery types; is more often a total lack of appreciation for what the battery bank is capable of than a battery manufacture. Clearly, this is not an inclusive statement as batteries as well as all other parts of the power system can fail too. 

For us as a boat hire operator, having a value battery that is generally very reliable (within the boundaries of the cost) backed up by a brilliant warranty is better than buying very expensive batteries that will get the same abuse yet have a poorer attached customer service. 

In a private boat, you're almost certainly better off with a better battery to start with. 

 

[BroadAmbition]

Update:-

Bro' has been reading through the technical manual with regards to the onboard 'Sterling' smart chargers / control box systems.  There are two micro switches in the 'Brain' that have to be set according to which type of batteries are installed with four options.  At present it is (Or should be, we will check) set to sealed multi-cell.  We are due to be onboard this month for a maintenance weekend and will carry out a thorough check of ‘B.A’s 12V system, primary checks will include – Battery drain on all circuits, alternator(s) output, Solar panel discharge, etc etc

Even so, due to the age of the present installed domestic batteries we are into the territory of having to purchase five new deep cycle leisure 110amp batteries.  We have discussed upgrading to ‘AGM’s, or Gell but  these are over £200 EACH which is over £1000 and would also cause other issues that would have to be addressed, that means an alternator(s) adjustment although the smart Sterling will be able to cope other systems may not fair so well, so it is a 'No' to AGM’s or Gell batteries

The last set of five batteries – I purchased from a local motor traders up here in Donny for about £110:00 each.  However Robin has been doing some researching on the internet, and got the price down to £80:00 each.  Step forward our Dale, he can supply them legally through his work at a genuine trade price inc vat to us at £60 each.  They retail to their customers at around the £100 mark, more on line or in the shops. So, seeing as we are getting them for a very good one-off price it would seem silly to miss the opportunity of upgrading the system so we are going to buy six of them. This means a bit of chippying on my behalf to extend the Port battery box capacity from two to three, plus associated multistrand cable, battery terminal clamps.  Now just counting down the days to get onboard and getting it sorted and 'B.A' back to top line as per the norm

Griff

 

[Viking23]

The problem with paralleling a bank of say four batteries, is if one cell in one battery goes down, it will drag the others down, as they discharge into the faulty battery, so after time, they all have the same low terminal voltage.

If this becomes close to 12.0 volts, for even a short time, of say a few days, then all four will need replacing at the same time, so this is probably why you had them all fail together. 

Running them, charging them, discharging them whilst on board week in week out, is rarely a problem, it's when you lock up, for a month and come back.  

There is a solution, in my opinion, have individual battery switches, isolate them all from each other when leaving, for long periods of time BUT you will need to look at how bilge pumps, alarms are managed.

By isolating individual batteries this way, you are taking the rogue one out of circuit.

If 4 years is the norm, then best to replace all batteries in the same bank with the same type, same capacity, same manufacturing batch, then they'll behave as one for longer.

 

 

[BroadAmbition]

During the 'Lock up' period, 'B.A' is plugged into shore power, the onboard charger is trickle charging them.

I think we are doing ok, the first set were installed 07 and lasted to 11, when they were replaced, now due replacement again, we always use the same identacal type / model as you suggest.  Hopefully this 'Current' batch will go for 4 years + as the others have done.

Griff

[Viking23]

With hire craft, there must be a lot of frantic battery swapping, at the start of hire, and then through call out, most boats older than... let's say this magic 4 years, must have mix of all sorts of batteries, ages, sulphation, etc.

In fact, is it policy for hire yards to remove all batteries during the winter season to test and recharge, if so, no wonder hire craft have a hard time?

I doubt batteries are identified and replaced as matched sets, more a case of... take four of those from that pile of charged batteries. Well they must be charged.... they've been plugged in for 48 hours, and they have been gassing quite nicely.... 

I would think that the later craft with battery management shore power etc, will keep their set for the life of the batteries, and trickle charge in place over winter, so I wonder if these exceed the 4 year life, they stand a greater chance in my opinion.

In the good old days, of battery caps and exposed interlinking battery connections, you could test each cell voltage, look at the inside of the battery cap, if black, then this cell is on it's way out, you could test the electrolyte of each cell, vs surrounding temperature, top up each cell, keep a note of which cell is using more water and if a cell was found to be faulty, it was cheaper to take your battery to "Battery Repair Man" who would disconnect and remove just one cell and rebuild it, and replace the hot bitumen seal. Good for another few years.

I guess on bigger traction batteries, that this practice still goes on, but then the batteries were designed for it, these days, all plastic sealed for life, no user exposed parts to test or change. No maintenence other than a flash of a credit card every now and again.

These words taken from the mouth of Corporal Jones of Dad's Army... and meant in the same context as he said it lol.

"It was a good life then..."

lol

[Oddfellow]

What has the age of a hire boat got to do with batteries? It would be wrong to put only new batteries on new boats. 

ALL batteries are tested using drop testers before fitting and all unsealed batteries are tested using Hydrometers when in the charging process. We keep a number of fully charged batteries on the shelf and charge flattened ones immediately. any of our batteries are also dated so we know when they were supplied and we would never put unmatched batteries on a boat. To do this is inviting trouble which creates an unwanted experience for our customers. 

I know that the first new Commodore from Richardson's (and I suspect all new builds from now on if the trial is successful, Clive can confirm I am sure) is using Li-ion batteries which are probably fitted for life, but to assume that a boat with shore power will keep its set for life is incorrect. If that boat comes in at 9am with flat batteries and is due out at 2pm, you would have to change the batteries for a fully charged set as a fitted charger would not be unlikely to properly recover them before customers arrive. 

Battery power is a common problem for us all. We hammer home to people the need to leave the fridge set low, turn things off when they aren't using them, run the engine if using the microwave and often for starting the heating. Run the engine for 4 hours a day, etc. 

I recall a few years ago that one chap just wanted to moor up somewhere and watch the sport on telly all week. We explained that he would HAVE to run the engine every day for the battery charging and hot water, but he ignored us and complained that "clearly the boat is incapable of doing its job and that there must be a fault; please find it and fix it." He would not accept that it was his expectations of the system that wrong not the system itself. The fault seemed to vanish at the end of his holiday. 

 

[BroadAmbition]

Ok,

Onboard last night, had a couple of nightcaps, told a few sea-stories between me and Bro, then lights out.

Today we brought down with us 6 x new leisure batteries.  Howard had charged then individually bringing them up to full capacity at home, then for the last 24 x Hrs wired them parallel and trickle charge the lot thereby balancing them.

Before removing the old batteries we tested both banks for a power drain, both banks measured 0:07amps that is nought point nought seven, or in Yorkshire speak 'Sweet 'F' all' more than acceptable.  we checked the Stirling smart charger to make sure it was configured to sealed multi wet cell correctly

We removed the five onboard. Fitting of the new ones involved having to fit new pig tails between each battery as due to the shoulders on the new ones (The originals were flat tops) meant the cables were a bit short, as a result we now comply with not having the bare copper ends tinned as they were.  The port bank battery box of course is now redundant as it used to house just 2 x batteries.   I won't have time this week to fashion a larger replacement so J.W in Stalham is on the case and will have it ready for this coming weekend.  In the meantime the port batteries are just sat on the boards holding themselves together by the cables, but 'B.A' is not going anywhere this week.

So thanks forumites for your advice, as always most welcome and gratefully received

Griff

 

 

[Liberty]

We have ongoing battery issues too.  I had the system looked at this week, and the sparky found the new 24v anchor windlass wired to 12v in the battery bank.  

This was fitted from scratch, new, by a very well known boat-builder based on the southern Broads, beginning with B.  

Also, he found the switchgear and a fuse, installed and completely hidden, unbeknown to me, inside a bunk, needing the removal of the drawer and drawer frame to access it. 

Not good.

 

[BroadAmbition]

Liberty - 'Not Good' is a bit of an understatement, shocking (Pun intended) practise and not what you should expect from any outfit let alone a very well known boat-builder based on the southern Broads, beginning with B.   Still, kudos to you for gettng stuck in sourcing the issues and not just resting on your laurels.  Our big advantage is that know every inch of 'B.A's electrical system so don't have much if any 'Detective' work to do when issues arrive.   I wish you a successful outcome but sounds like you are very much on top of it

Griff