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Paladin
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Posts posted by Paladin
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11 minutes ago, Vaughan said:
The boating fraternity on the Broads will also be expecting lockdown restrictions to be relaxed in the near future for exactly the same reasons of public health and well-being that are being put forward by the anglers.
But boaters have no organisation that is willing to put forward the case on their behalf.
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19 minutes ago, marshman said:
I believe it is run by a charity but as you say it is the Cators behind it all
https://www.salhousebroad.org.uk/
Like many charities, the primary cost to be covered will be that of the Ranger - and thats no mean feat!
No trace of it on the Charities Commission web site, that I can find. From the Salhouse Broad web site:
The site is managed by the landowner, Henry Cator, and the Salhouse Broad Rangers, as a sustainable business. Henry knows the importance of protecting the Broad’s past, whilst also meeting the needs and challenges of the future. Management therefore focuses on maintaining and improving the visitor facilities at Salhouse Broad, whilst retaining its value for wildlife, heritage and community. To that end, income generated by the Broad goes back into the upkeep, maintenance, conservation and improvements to access of Salhouse Broad.
Ironically, had the family not taken it back from the Broads Authority a few years ago, the current costs would be borne by the toll payers.
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44 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:
I don't suppose that many of us do but for some folk a chance to save a bob or two is not to be missed.
My concern is not about getting any sort of discount. But the disinformation being put out by the BA is nothing short of disgraceful. To say that Section 16 doesn't apply to private boats is simply not true!
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1 hour ago, JennyMorgan said:
I'm mindful of a case regarding a houseboat at the excellent Waveney River Centre. A one time 'harbour master', a man called Allan, lived on a houseboat there. He refused to pay his toll, claiming that he was not using the Broads, that he was moored in a private marina. He referred his case to the High Court twice I think it was. He finally lost his case, the Judge awarding in favour of the Broads Authority. I don't remember the fine detail but basically it was down to upholding the 'intention of the Act'. We can go deep into the semantics of it all but I suspect that if any of us were brave enough to make a stand then we would probably lose on this one!
That is the case of Broads Authority v Fry [2014]. The final judgement can be read here.
Mr Fry's case did not rest on the Section 16, which was never even mentioned. If it had, he would still have lost, as his vessel was in use for residential purposes.
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24 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:
Where perhaps we differ is in interpretation, namely that I don't read it as applying to the business of supplying a mooring, e.g. as in a marina for example. At least that is my understanding as regard the intention of the Act. Granted that the Act is poorly worded, in part, but in this case I don't see it as being a loophole in this unusual circumstance.
I have found this definition of 'carrying on a business' in Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary:
"A routine and continuous involvement in an activity undertaken for the purpose of making profit."
The Act doesn't define, and therefore doesn't limit, the nature of the business that is to be carried on, only that the vessel is moored "on waters occupied or customarily used by a person carrying on a business".
So the business could be, and this list is not exhaustive, hiring boats, letting out moorings, providing boat repair services, fuel etc., or any combination of those activities.
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23 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:
Just to be clear though, doesn't a private boat have to be having work done on it, or be up for sale, rather than just being stored?
Broads Authority Act 2009:
Section 16(6)Nothing contained in or in force or done under the specified provisions shall apply to any vessel which—
(a)is not for the time being in use for the purposes of navigation, or for residential or commercial purposes;
(b)is moored on waters occupied or customarily used by a person carrying on a business; and
(c)is so moored for the purposes of being serviced, repaired or stored by that person or of being sold or offered or exposed for sale by that person (whether acting as principal or agent).
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Either it’s very poor reporting or it's a very disingenuous briefing by the BA.
“The Broads Authority has asked the government to offer “urgent financial support” after it was forced to suspend hire boat tolls during the coronavirus outbreak.”
It wasn’t forced to do anything of the sort. The BA has admitted being proactive in reminding the hire companies of the exemption contained in Section 16 of the 2009 Broads Act. It didn’t have to do that and the hire companies will still have to apply for the exemption. It’s not automatically applied.
“The Broads Authority (BA), which is responsible for maintaining Norfolk’s network of waterways, has activated a clause in its legislation allowing hire boats out of use to be exempted from tolls.”
They haven’t activated it. It’s been active in the legislation since 2009, and has been usually been applied when private boats go into a yard for work to be done or to be sold.
"However, the BA confirmed that the same rule could not apply to private boaters…"
Yes it can. The exemption clause doesn’t mention whether it applies to hire boats or private boats. As long as the conditions in the clause are met, it can apply to both.The exemption applies to tolls, insurance and Boat Safety Certificate. I doubt whether hire boats are individually insured, which gives considerable weight to the argument that the exemption can apply to a private boat.
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There is no ban, on CaRT waters or the Broads, to prevent those who live on their boats from moving their boats. CaRT has simply made it easier for them not to have to.
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25 minutes ago, SPEEDTRIPLE said:
What I can't understand is you posted this on Friday, and nobody has yet shown any outburst of absolute disgust at the fact that in picture 2, you show a boat underway?. Had this been a pic of a boat underway on the Broads, people would have been demanding the arrest and imprisonment of the offending crew. That's what they're doing on Facebook, "they" being some members of this forum (you know who you are), dare I say a hint of hypocracy?.
I would imagine the boater on the canal lives on his boat. The journey he is making may well have been within the terms of the government's instruction, so why would anyone criticise, without knowing the details?
An hour ago, on the HSC web cam, I saw a motor cruiser making its way downstream through Horning. I only mention it now, in response to your rather aggressive post. I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of some of your fellow forum members.
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5 hours ago, VetChugger said:
I'm going to be just a bit more blunt about this. Can we cease all debate discussion and crusading on the national park issue whilst this crisis is ongoing. To harrang the BA about the NP status in response to work they are doing and arrangements they are trying to put into place is beyond my own tolerance! Also to see valued members with opinions and stories to share being driven out by this is unforgiveable! Please take heed!!!
I just hope the Broads Authority take note of this comment.
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26 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:
However many people are employed in 'communications' I wonder. In that press release two names are mentioned, any more out there?
Lots.
See p.3 of attached pdf.
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17 minutes ago, Vaughan said:
Once they have some bookings - let's take a guess and say August - then they will start tolling some boats and that will be the full toll for the year, regardless. There are no "short visits" on commercial hire boats!
Short visit tolls are only for periods of up to a total of 28 days in any toll year, so pretty irrelevant to this discussion, I think. Perhaps to level the playing field, as there is a blanket ban on all unnecessary travel and all boats (other than those being used as residential accommodation and continuously cruising) are locked in, we could all be given a tolls holiday, until the lock is undone. Then we would all pay an annual toll.
To those who say it would be too difficult, just remember the extraordinary efforts the BA went to when they created a whole new tolls system to hammer motor cruisers, and the huge consultation exercise for the re-branding.
Where there's a will, there's a way. It's just so obvious that the 'will' bit is missing.
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1 hour ago, BroadAmbition said:
Personally, my thoughts are that I'm more than happy to pay the toll on 'B.A' even though for the foreseeable we can't use her. I want the rivers and facilities to be there for us all to use after this national crisis is put to bed. I also agree that the hire yards should be given a toll holiday so they can hopefully manage and keep going.
What I will not be happy about - if it happens - is that the private boat owners next year have to shoulder the shortfall caused by the hire toll holiday. Some of it yes - maybe a one off extra few £'s but would it be a 'One Off' or set a new higher base line for the following years to come? Unfortunately I have a distrust about the Ba brought on entirely by their own actions over the years
Griff
While I agree with your sentiment, it is not within the remit of the BA to get involved with financial support of this kind. That is down to central government.
I think you should prepare yourself for being very, very unhappy, further down the line. The BA has a long track record of bending the rules to breaking point, when it suits them.-
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I have had a reply from Dr Packman elsewhere. In view of the serious implications, I'm reproducing it here, together with my response.
"Yes you are correct in the fact that the waters are adjacent waters but Section 16 Exemption of certain vessels sub section (6) states:
Nothing contained in or in force or done under the specified provisions shall apply to any vessel which—
(a) is not for the time being in use for the purposes of navigation, or for residential or commercial purposes;
(b) is moored on waters occupied or customarily used by a person carrying on a business; and
(c) is so moored for the purposes of being serviced, repaired or stored by that person or of being sold or offered or exposed for sale by that person (whether acting as principal or agent).
I hope that helps ."
Thank you JP, but, no, that doesn't really help.
Paragraph (a) applies to all the private boats as well, as they are effectively prohibited from being used for the purposes of navigation by government edict.
Paragraphs (b) and (c) must be read together and have, historically, been interpreted as meaning, for example, if I can't toll my boat because it needs work to pass the BSS, I can put it into a yard for the work to be done without breaking any law. It all revolved around the service/repair/storage/sale etc being provided for a third party in the course of business. Are you now saying that that interpretation is being re-interpreted?
I suggest that, if that is the case, you may well find that private boaters expect you to be similarly creative and apply Paragraph (a) to all those private boats which are moored in commercial premises, which are similarly prohibited from navigating, even to the extent of taking advantage of that section themselves and claiming exemption from their tolls until the embargo is lifted - which could conceivable be next year.
I suggest that (a) could be used as a defence against any prosecution brought by the BA.
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40 minutes ago, Vaughan said:
So you wish to enforce that, do you? In these circumstances?
JM, yes I can speak for myself and thought I had replied. Obviously forgot to press the 'Submit reply' button
Second attempt...
The BA will enforce it on me, won't they? In these circumstances? Sauce for the goose...
It is not for the BA to provide respite or relief. That's down to the government, who have imposed these restrictions. Or perhaps the marinas taking our money for moorings for boats we can't use should be giving us a rebate. Oh yes, and some of those marinas will be the same ones that the BA is thinking about giving relief to.
It's not that I'm unsympathetic - some of my friends are in dire straights, having lost their source of income overnight, but deliberately failing to collect a due toll could be regraded as spending that money, which should be going towards the navigation, on giving relief. I don't think that is something that comes with the Broads Acts.
It used to be called the Bank of Mum and Dad. Now it appears to be the Bank of the Private Boater.
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14 hours ago, BroadsAuthority said:
Private boats that are kept or used in the Broads navigation area or adjacent waters do still need to be tolled. We fully appreciate the frustrations that private owners have in not being able to use their vessels during this time, coupled with financial concerns that many are facing. The Authority will give careful consideration to exceptional circumstances that mean a private boat owner is unable to meet this commitment.
We ask for your understanding that tolls fund essential navigation works which need to carry on even if the majority of boaters cannot currently benefit from them.
The Broads Authority is particularly conscious of the dire position that hire boat operators face. The Authority is therefore highlighting the provision in the Broads Authority Act that hire boats that are not being used and are effectively in storage in their own yards, do not incur a toll.
Not quite right, IMO. If the yards also have boats there that do not belong to the yard owner, for example they rent out moorings to private owners, the yard becomes 'adjacent waters' under the 2009 Broads Act and a toll is payable on ALL the boats kept in the water there.
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28 minutes ago, grendel said:
Paladin, i think Marshman was just going to go to his boat to do some work, not head out sailing in it, thats how it came across to me anyway
I didn't intend to go too deeply into this, but, from the UK Government web site:
You should only leave the house for one of four reasons.
● Shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which must be as infrequent as possible.
● One form of exercise a day, for example a run, walk, or cycle - alone or with members of your household.
● Any medical need, or to provide care or to help a vulnerable person.
● Travelling to and from work, but only where this absolutely cannot be done from home.
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5 hours ago, marshman said:
Thanks guys - I'm off!!!!!!
Well actually not today as I just about finished the inside yesterday, apart from the berth cushions. I then have to start on the outside and I keep looking for reasons not to do that - it will require sometime due to the green growth overwinter!
Posted on the Broads Authority FB page an hour ago: "We fully agree that travelling on the rivers constitutes non-essential travel, unless it is for supplies/fuel or is in exceptional individual circumstances."
Just saying.
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17 minutes ago, ranworthbreeze said:
Hello Peter,
With regards to our syndicate we will leave it down to individual owners if they use there allocations or not. With the likes of Richardson's and NBD cancelling their current hires or deferring them to later in the year some of the smaller operators may follow suit such as Brooms, if the hire side of their business is closed how long will the fuel station remain open bearing in mind that it only re-opened a couple of weeks ago. Other fuel stations on the rivers will follow suit and toilet pumping will cease. If the government tightens down the lock-down or restricts travelling or classifies boating in the same light as Caravan Parks then all of our time on the Broads will be restricted.
Regards
Alan
Ferry Marina are still doing pump-outs at the moment. Boulter's at Horning and Sutton Staithe Boatyard are still providing all their usual services, repairs/pump-outs/diesel, and will continue to do so, subject to government direction to the contrary.
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8 minutes ago, grendel said:
ah but if we call it Sandford now, Marshman will step in and complain
If he doesn't, I will!
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1 hour ago, Chelsea14Ian said:
I think theres a difference between allowing enough for yourself and also if you are buying for someone who is unable to do so themselves. Then the few that sadly buy up the shop just because it's there.Great on the supermarkets that are setting aside time slots for the most in need.Clearly if more people have to stay at home more home deliverys will be needed.
My local Tesco is setting aside an hour for the vulnerable, from 9 -10am. Guess what happens between 8 and 9am
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2 hours ago, psychicsurveyor said:
Paladin, I can honestly say, in all the years I have read your posts you have never ' raised' your voice. The fact that you have reflects the genuine anger everyone is feeling towards the greedy and selfish in society.
For Mrs P and me, this could, quite literally, be a matter of life or death. but I can still retain a sense of humour
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12 minutes ago, vanessan said:
I couldn’t agree more with that and I’m glad the filter didn’t kick in! I doubt if any of the SIBs are members here but you never know! The message needs to get out there - don’t be selfish, there’s enough to go round if people don’t panic.
I wasn't directing my comment towards members. I'm certain the number of lurkers far exceeds the membership. People who might have booked, or are thinking of booking, holidays in the region often search for information and come across related forums like this one. You absolutely right, the message MUST be driven home.
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I spoke to my neighbour this morning, who is an elf and safety consultant for a number of large food manufacturers. He said food manufacture has increased, there is no shortage, but the warehouses are already crammed. The issue is getting the stocks from the warehouses to the supermarkets to replenish the shelves cleared by THE STUPID IGNORANT BASTARDS who are stock piling for no good reason.
Edited to add: Oh good. I thought the word filter would amend my post and neuter the strong feeling I have on this particular issue.
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Coronavirus And The Broads
in Broads Chat
Posted
Just to be clear, the law on this is contained in The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 Section 6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.
Section 6 (2) then gives circumstances that may be considered to be 'reasonable excuse'. Going on holiday is not on that list.
The fundamental restriction is designed to prevent people from leaving the place where they are living, so, yes, travel is being prevented.