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dom
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Posts posted by dom
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50 minutes ago, Turnoar said:
Enjoying following your research, it’s prompted me to pick up links I have to members of the Allen family in the area surrounding Coltishall and possibly the yard where wherry building took place in the late 1800’s. Seems Bunns and possibly press’s spawned from this neck of the Bure too.
No Allens in the document I'm looking at currently that I can see, but Leander, a pleasure wherry which used to belong to one of the Bunns is listed belonging to a Le Grice. Took me a minute to place the name, but presumably also linked to North Walsham.
A James Bunn definitely ran a wherry (Horstead Trader) from somewhere just upstream of Horstead Bridge - generally listed as Hautbois Magna or Great Hautbois. It seems they ran from there right down to Yarmouth. William, a generation before ran a wherry too, but I've not found much detail as yet, other than he was from Marsham. I think they were a bit of a wherrying dynasty. James had at least 13 kids, so no shortage of crew!
I find it all fascinating, but also slightly spooky. I was looking at a list earlier and realised all the northern river wherrymen's surnames were not just familiar, but a very high percentage were the same as my closest friends in my youth. It's almost like we were subconsciously drawn together somehow by a shared heritage.
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Can anyone shed any light on exactly what unique quality or specific feature makes a boat a wherry? I thought there'd be something obvious I simply wasn't aware of, but Googling doesn't seem to shed much light.
The reason for asking is, Wikipedia's page on Norfolk wherries says on the Aylsham navigation they had to be 12' 6" x 3' 6" maximum. If that's length and beam, it's more like a punt. I can't believe it's beam and draft though, as surely 12'6" beam never would have got up to Aylsham?
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35 minutes ago, Vaughan said:
In all that time, how many of our customers were killed or otherwise suffered symptoms which could in any way be related to noxious fumes given off by a diesel or gas fired blown air heating system?
Answer : Zero.
There have been 2 deaths due to one in 2019 though. Just did a quick check to see if there were any more and it's quite alarming how many other CO related deaths there have been from generators, exhaust leaks, etc
I've just been trying to figure out an explanation as to how both our opinions on the carbon buildup issue could be right, as I know I'm right, but also appreciate your experience. Would all of your experience have been going back a fair while? And predominantly in France? I wonder if it's either French (white?) diesel being better quality, or biodiesel related.
I don't remember diesel bug being an issue when I was around boats all the time, but it's all you hear about these days. Is the hygroscopic nature of biodiesel also worse for carbon build up in heaters? Seems plausible that carboxylic acid from biodiesel which causes filter clogging might also increase carbon in combustion?
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17 minutes ago, Vaughan said:
Well, in my years of stripping down heaters and servicing them I have never found this problem. The burner units are usually clean. This may be why Webasto (diesel) and Trumatic (gas) heaters are now factory sealed and cannot be "got into" for cleaning or maintenance as there is no need.
I've not had experience with gas Trumatic heaters, but diesel ones definitely do have issues with carbon build up. My experience with it has largely been in commercial vehicles, so it may be that they're more prone to it. Obviously, a truck cab will warm up far quicker than the average boat, so their heaters may well tend to get run on lower settings for long periods, exacerbating the issue?
If you dig around online a bit, you will still find plenty of mention of it amongst boaters though - particularly with Chinese units, but also with Eberspacher, etc. Some people actually recommend running a cup full of paraffin through them regularly to help burn off deposits. The boat I had planned to buy earlier in the year actually had a Mikuni unit, which didn't appear to be firing up. I spoke to the main service agent and they strip and media blast them. They suggested if it had power to the glowplug but didn't fire, it was the likely cause.
I guess maybe with hire boats, minimal winter use means they're not getting run at low settings for long periods most of the time. I can imagine a lot of hirers will simply crank thermostats right up too, which'll probably help keep them clean. Don't know if there's any difference between road and red diesel which might also have an effect?
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On 14/12/2022 at 20:46, Turnoar said:
Duncan Industries manufactured the Duncan Alvis here with some help with the early timber frames from Herbert Woods and Graham Bunn. I think the business was canned eventually.
Just stumbled across this old post whilst digging around to see if Graham Bunn's wherrymen ancestors get any mention on here.
My grandfather was a coachbuilder and worked on wooden aircraft frames. Just after WW2, he got made redundant when Miles Aircraft went bust. The family, including my dad, ended up moving up to Haveringland and living in a Nissen hut on the former airfield so my grandfather could get a job at Duncan Industries. He made timber frames for some of Duncan's cars. I know he worked on Duncan Healeys, but not sure if he did anything with the Alvis. It's really interesting to hear of the connection to Graham Bunn.
Ironic choice of words to describe Duncan's demise. My grandmother worked for the canning factory up the road from Duncan Industries.
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38 minutes ago, MauriceMynah said:
I'm intrigued that I'm advised to test with a petrol vehicle, it's almost like diesel doesn't give off enough CO.
Engine related CO deaths occur more often on petrol powered vessels (in the leisure industry at least).
Diesel engines run on the principle of combining a hydrocarbon with oxygen. When it's running properly, the output is CO2 and water and only tiny CO levels. You can't get too blasé about it though, as the second they're not running optimally, you'll get incomplete combustion of the fuel. That results in Carbon Monoxide being produced in large volumes (and, I'd guess, something akin to Hydrogen Peroxide).
Both diesel engines and diesel heaters are reasonably safe in terms of emissions, as long as you get the exhaust safely overboard, which is why incidents with heaters tend to be rare, unless using dodgy exhausts.
The danger with diesel heaters (irrespective of brand) is that one of the main issues they have is carbon accumulation. If they're run low too much of the time, they "fur up" with carbon. That stops heat transfer into the chamber walls, cools combustion and results in a less clean burn. Eventually, CO emission will rise, which increases the chances of it getting drawn into cabin areas. For that reason, it's important that every few weeks continual use, you wind the heater up full for a while to try and burn off the internal deposits.
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7 hours ago, MauriceMynah said:
How will I know if it's a good one?
In case you didn't see my earlier post, "detectors that comply with the more stringent BS EN 50291-2 standard are best suited for boats".
Personally, with things which can kill you, I'm more of a fan of redundancy than premium quality. Two typical off the shelf devices in overlapping areas is better than a single premium quality unit if a battery goes flat or a component fails.
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6 hours ago, Vaughan said:
I have been thinking of No 4, Swallow, then owned by Ken Lord and previously by Tom Percival. She was kept on a buoy on Wroxham Broad and although quite small was a very handy racing boat.
The size is about right, but I think she may be a bit too lean and elegant judging by the (not great quality) pictures I can find online.
I can't help but think with it being within a few years of his death and our being loosely acquainted with him, I'd have known if it had previously been Tom Percival's boat, especially racing at Oulton week.
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Definitely wouldn't be Morning Calm, as she was built by C&G Press. I'd have remembered if that was the case, as I was friends with one of their descendants in school.
Not clinker. I'd have remembered if that was the case, as my dad's best mate had spent the preceding years rebuilding a clinker motor cruiser. I spent countless days listening to the constant sound of hammering of roves! She's another one I'd love to see again - Josephine from Summercraft, she was virtually scrap a few years ago, but I think she's had a fortune spent and now on the Southern Broads somewhere.
Dusky Maid doesn't sound at all familiar. I'm fairly sure she had a modest sounding, single word name.
I've been through the entire class list and think I'm going to have to find some sort of record of results to stand any chance of tying it down. If I could see the results for Oulton 85 and 86, it'd narrow it down massively. After that, I could quickly eliminate a few I know we raced such as White Wings, or the long, sweeping designs like Loyalist. I think you'd fairly quickly get down to a relatively small list and be able to easily work out which she is. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it turned out she was Melody.
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1 hour ago, Turnoar said:
If it was an all varnished hull then that narrows it down a lot. On the basis of that and owner in the vicinity of Stalham Surgery it’s a long shot but possibly Reed Robin?
Based on varnish only my other thoughts are Barracuda, I know she was based at Wroxham back around that time but not sure re racing. Other varnished yachts I can’t link in but may jog your memory are Phantom, Loyalist and Cynthia. Not sure if Cynthia was raced, her rig had gone by the turn of the 90’s.
With the passage of time some may have been painted of course, were the Pandora’s varnished when in hire.. but I may have opened a box of worms there!
Reed Robin sounded familiar, but looking at her details, I think a) she's too long, and b) she has Stuart Turner propulsion, which I'd imagine to be an original period engine. I'm fairly sure ours didn't have an inboard, which was one of the reasons we towed her to Oulton. I think I may remember Reed Robin from racing, and possibly also Loyalist, but none of the names sound right for ours.
My primary memory is of seeing her tied alongside our Broom, either on tow, or on a swinging mooring at Oulton. Because she was lower so I was invariably looking down, it's possible my brain may be confusing a varnished transom with a varnished hull. It's really unlike me, but I just can't picture her clearly. I guess it's an age thing
I guess another option is to try and get up for one of next year's regattas so I can do a bit of sleuthing in person. I'm fairly sure I'd know her the second I saw her if she's still around.
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40 minutes ago, LizG said:
I almost think the Golden Galleon would put your memory into the late 1970s??? Could be proved wrong.
Okay my questions - how many crew on board
Was the helm also dealing with the mainsheet or was there someone else on the stern dealing with that?
Did you have winches for the jib
Did it have a bowsprit
Can you remember the occupation of the helm
I'm thinking of Melody or Bryony maybe?
Liz (who remembers sailing at Horning, Wroxham, Barton, Thurne and Oulton in the 1970s but not the 80s)
Definitely 80s. I actually looked earlier and Golden Galleon was running until the 90s. The EDP says she sat on the Yare from 00-06 before being scrapped.
Answers to your yacht questions:
4 crew. 2nd crew member in addition to the helm at the stern. The cockpit was on the small size for 4.
The jib was on capstans(?), so you put a turn or two around a roller and pulled the sheet by hand against a ratcheting mechanism, rather than a winch with a handle.
Bowsprit - I think yes, but couldn't guarantee
Can't think of the helm's occupation. My dad worked for Norwich Union. I suspect he may well have met them through work.
Looking at the class website, Melody certainly doesn't look wrong, although she's in white paint and with a topsail, which goes against what I'd said previously. The name doesn't jar either and the helm's name seems vaguely familiar. Built by Ernest Woods also sounds right. I'm going to let that run round in my head for a while to see if it stirs any other memories. The only thing I wonder is whether the helm from the mid 80s would realistically still be listed on the class website now. I'd image they'd probably be heading for 80 now, but I guess the site may just show the info from when she last raced, which could be some time ago?
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One of their other products is, er, interesting?
I'm not sure callng that Sleepsafe was the wisest of ideas!?
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There's also a "gravity hill" at Knock in Cumbria which is an interesting experience. Park your car facing downhill, take the brakes off and it rolls backwards, rather than forwards.
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A couple of other things:
"detectors that comply with the more stringent BS EN 50291-2 standard are best suited for boats"
British standard detectors also have delays after initial low level detection before sounding a warning.
30 ppm 120 minutes
50 ppm 60 minutes
100 ppm 10 minutes
300 ppm ImmediateIt might be that your detector only shows the level once triggered?
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Have you got access to a petrol car? Or a petrol outboard? Holding it in proximity to the exhaust with the engine running should give you a reading. The MAIB report for one of the last carbon monoxide incidents stated levels around 2000 parts per million above the exhaust of a petrol engined cruiser. Modern vehicles with strict emissions will probably be a lot lower.
MAIB also showed more extreme examples of the effects of exposure.
1500 ppm Headache after 15 minutes, collapse after 30 minutes, death after 1 hour
2000 ppm Headache after 10 minutes, collapse after 20 minutes, death after 45 minutes
3000 ppm Maximum "safe" exposure for 5 minutes, danger of collapse in 10 minutes
6000 ppm Headache and dizziness in 1 to 2 minutes, danger of death in 10 to 15 minutes
12800 ppm Immediate effect, unconscious after 2 to 3 breaths, danger of death in 1 to 3 minutesThe bottom one is the thing to be aware of. I've seen people on Youtube with CO alarms going off entering cabins and wandering around without taking steps to ventilate the area first, which is a really bad idea.
Also be aware that CO has a cumulative effect and can build up in the system over weeks or days.
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21 minutes ago, chrisdobson45 said:
It was always driven "spiritedly"...
Probably more a case of thrashing it to within an inch of its life in the vague hope of achieving a sensible speed.
The engine was set at a stupid angle, which made it a nightmare to change plugs and they also regularly ate clutches and broke gearbox forks. I inherited one which I half killed before passing on to some poor unsuspecting buyer at Norwich auction.
The only redeeming feature was the "satellite" controls, which I actually quite liked the ergonomics of, once you got used to things like having to switch off indicators manually.
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2 hours ago, kpnut said:
it’s probably more like lack of proper consolidation when first laid.
To be fair to them, they may have been placed under undue pressure to complete the works. A certain person ignored the closure and moored anyway, pushed their way past Heras fencing and went snooping around the plant and equipment on site. I'd imagine they were keen to move on as soon as possible as a result.
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We once did Hardknott and Wrynose 5 up in a brown Citroen Visa with horrible soft rolling suspension and a gutless 1100cc engine. I think you'd struggle to come up with a less appropriate car for the job. I genuinely thought we were going to have to get out and push at a couple of points.
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7 hours ago, Vaughan said:
Was this an older wooden boat or a new one with a Fibre-glass hull?
Was she gaff rigged, with a topsail, or Bermuda rigged?
All registered River Cruisers have a sail number. Do you remember it?
Was the boat kept on Wroxham Broad? If so was she moored on a buoy?
She was an older wooden boat, I think fully varnished. Probably gaff rigged, but no topsail.
I've usually got an incredible memory for detail. I can remember stupid things like tyre sizes on cars I owned 30 years ago but, for some reason, nothing seems to have sunk in regarding name or sail number on the yacht. I was always on jib and can picture my feet wedged against a toe rail in the cockpit as we heeled over, but I just can't visualise much else. I suspect the memories have probably been blanked out by drunken antics in the clubhouse at Oulton and my dad going overboard one race and only just being recovered by the safety boat!
We used to do an alongside tow down to Oulton and I can remember Golden Galleon coming past on one occasion at high speed, putting up a massive bow wave and nearly wrecking the yacht - but I can't picture where we set out from. I think it probably was a swinging mooring on Wroxham Broad, but I'm not sure if that would have been her permanent home, or if she was just there following Wroxham week.
I keep thinking that I want to get back up to Oulton at some point for a powerboat evening meeting. I might have to get around to doing so next year and leaving a bit early to see if WOBYC have old results. I suspect if I saw the helm and boat name in the results, the memories would all come flooding back.
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Bit of a long shot, but does anyone know of anywhere where it's possible to find race results from historic regattas, going back to the 80s?
My dad and I used to crew on a cruiser class yacht which belonged to a middle-aged couple. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the yacht, but I'd dearly love to know what it was and where she is now. My dad's long gone and the only thing I can remember about the owners is that I think they lived somewhere near Stalham surgery.
We weren't the most experienced of crews, but actually did remarkably well at Wroxham and Oulton Weeks for a couple of years, getting up amongst the top finishers on quite a few occasions. I'd guess that was probably around 1984-86 or so. If I could see the results, I suspect it might be enough to allow me to work out which one was us. I've tried looking at current lists, but the names of boats and crews are all so familiar, I haven't got a hope of working out which yacht it was without narrowing things down a bit.
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7 hours ago, ZimbiIV said:
I must be getting old, nobody has mentioned 8 track players.
I remember fitting one (negative earth) to a positive earthed Mini.
I worked for Norfolk Car Audio in Norwich for a while, back when high end car stereos were still an expensive pastime for middle aged hi-fi buffs, rather than boy racers. One of our demo cars was a '73 Rolls Royce Silver Shadow. We fitted about £10k worth of CD player, amps, subs and speakers to it, all in nice wood veneer racks and custom leather door panels. We also left the original 8 track in place and hooked it up to the system - partly for a laugh, partly to demonstrate how an original system could be expanded. I suspect it was probably the highest spec ever 8 track system! It actually sounded quite reasonable, but the choice of music was a bit limited, as cassettes were already getting hard to come by. That's probably how I developed a bit of a taste for prog rock...
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21 minutes ago, floydraser said:
Scented thing. A bit of card with a bubble on it which you pierce and hang in front of a vent. Not if I'm in the car though; they make me feel sick!
Feu Orange. One bubble, but three coloured circles like a traffic light. I'd all but forgotten about them!
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If you owned a RWD Ford in the early 80s, jack-up blocks for the rear axle - and in some cases an extra fog or break light mounted to the axle.
Autoplas slatted rear window covers - particularly popular on Minis and Chevettes.
Mountney steering wheels - obligatory for every serious car enthusiast in the 70s and 80s, especially Ford or Mini owners.
"Steering aids" - the bolt on spinning ****, which fitted to the steering wheel and allowed easier one handed manouvering. At one time, I worked for a company with several car accessory shops, where we knew the former as "suicide knobs" because of their tendency to detach at the least opportune moments.
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2 hours ago, Bikertov said:
Maybe that is how they have lowered the river levels, by effectively pulling out the plug !
That's pretty much it. They opened Denver Sluice up a week ago to the point that the basin virtually emptied and boats on the EA mooring there were firmly aground. They have to create capacity there first, before they can increase throughput upstream.
Levels at Earith were so high at the tail end of last week that the road flooded and had to be closed, which causes 20 mile diversions for a lot of people (me included
). All 3 gates on Earith sluice have been wide open ever since. The level has now dropped over half a metre since Friday.
The big problem is Welney, where the village sits right on the edge of the flood plains. When they do things like the above, it causes major disruption there (the road was heading for 2ft deep last week), but levels have to drop across the entire flood plain before issues subside, so they try and manage things by controlling flow at Earith. Similar issues occur at Sutton Gault, but there's a lot less population there to complain. Very high flows also cause issues with boats - I think there have been 3 or 4 in the last week either adrift, or loose on moorings.
You can see in your video that the amount of water passing through the lock is about the same as at Earith, but passing through a gap about 1/3rd the size, so flow is way faster. On the plus side, the water seems fairly debris free. A couple of weeks ago, there were vast amounts of branches and other debris coming down from somewhere. I think there's still an EA caution for a large tree adrift upstream of St.Ives.
Having been out to sea a few times, it all looks like it'd be quite fun to have a go in with the right boat, but with locks to contend with, and the flow only running in one direction, it does pretty much put the area out of use. I'm assuming the Old West and Ely Ouse are probably much less affected and people moored at Fish & Duck or Ely might possibly still be able to get out on the river.
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). All 3 gates on Earith sluice have been wide open ever since. The level has now dropped over half a metre since Friday.
Wherries
in The Historic Broads
Posted
Surely that'd mean you'd need 30ft or so minimum width for two vessels to pass though? I did think maybe they ran in one direction at certain times, but over the distance involved and with the speed they'd travel, I can't see that being feasible. Has the river really lost that much width since 1912? They must have been tough blokes too. Presumably they'd have to spend a lot of time quanting with that little width.