RealWindmill

But dont you think point 4 is just basic common seamanship which an experienced helm would know. Sure the newbie may not encounter gales or bad conditions but it would be part of the training skippers remit to impart such seaman like knowledge ?

Well looks like you've all had a fun day here on this thread. I for one don't see it as boring at all but very interesting and it certainly shows the best and worst of what forum debating is all about. Have been out all day but notice i'm still the villain of the piece to many . Here's a couple of pics from Somerleyton Moorings at about 9:30 this morning. The water was actually a bit higher at 8 oclock and lapping around the electric posts and the effect I will describe was even more pronounced, but it took that time for my camera to charge up. There are two or three hire boats and a couple of private ones. So do any of you old hands notice anything in these pics ( admittedly not immediately obvious from the pics , it was more pronounced to the naked eye.) ? I am referring to how tight the moorings ropes are on all the boats ( bar one - that is the privateer near the electric who had recently adjusted his lines ). Now of course the water has risen with the flood and lifted the boats for this to happen. Point 1 - a tight rope is liable to part readily or pull out a deck cleat or loosen mooring post esp in a strong blow. Point 2 - a bit of slack in the mooring rope would reduce the chance of said cleat failure, post breaking or rope parting. Point 3 - the boat Skipper should at ALL times be aware of the state of his mooring lines 24hrs a day- esp in inclement weather and adjust as necessary. It is his duty and responsibility to his boat and crew's safety. Point 4 - you probably won't get told this or other similar tips at your hireyard h/o due not enough time or information overload, but our first time boater but would certainly get this kind of info and much more from an onboard training Skipper, and in real time too so it would stick in the memory - call it on the job training if you will. Might prevent an incident happening.

Agreed RB, and also agree us older hands all mess up on occasion, sometimes embarassingly so. We want to encourage these first timers to come and enjoy and learn from their early adventures. I just think that that most of these first timers would appreciate learning more quickly and not get put off by a bad early experience and that should result in plenty of return hirers year on year. That would please the hire yards and their finances.

All that you say is very true. Would a first time hirer have the understanding or knowledge to do any of that from the word go.

Good thread, innit - bet you didn't expect this to run like this when you started it Mr Wussername. One question springs to mind which I think might be interesting exploring ( groan - here we go again ). All vessels in the world including Merchant ships, Military ships, large pleasure yachts and so on have onboard an experienced Master Mariner in sole command of all aspects of it's life and role at sea. When this ship arrives to enter any foreign port or to negotiate any navigationally tricky waterway it is normal for the Master to take onboard a recognised local pilot. in most places this is normally compulsory. The reason is obvious - the Pilot who is often an extremely experienced Master Mariner himself has first hand knowledge of the waters and nav requirements, buoyage arrangements etc of his local patch. Now our Master ( in command of all he surveys, one step below God and all that ) is still in sole command of his vessel. The Pilot is only there in an advisory capacity and our Master can override him at any time, but woe betide the Master if he didn't follow the Pilot's advice. In the event of an incident such as collision or grounding the investigating board (MIB) would be down on the Master like a ton of bricks, and he probably wouldn't be a Master Mariner for much longer. So the Pilot may be the local expert but not In Command. Now, and I think you can see where this is going, The Broads are tidal waters and are subject to the BA's version of the ColRegs and buoyage rules. Mister first time Hirer gets on his boat, He is Master of that boat, he is in charge of all his actions and his crew and their safety. trouble is he's never been on a boat before, doesn't realise it steers from the back end, doesn't realise it won't respond to the wheel when going backwards, hasn't got a clue about tides or propwalk or springing off a windward quayside. You can tell him that info at h/o or on a video which he may or may not absorb. Now put a Charter Skipper ( lets call him a Pilot ) onboard for a few days or the whole duration of his hire and suddenly there is one competent and happy and, most importantly, safe new recruit to the boating world. Safer for all the rest of us too and our boats, and for the Rescue services. He is still Master of his hireboat, the Pilot is still only advisory. Mister hirer can still override him at any time just as our Sea Captain . Mr Hirer is still in control of all aspects of his holiday. Is that not a win - win situation. ? or have I not thought it through enough .

Wise words Gracie and well said. In reply may I say ( not directed at you but more to others ) . f things are so idyllic and rosy in Broadland why are the controlling authority ( ie. the BA ) so concerned as to initiate a big Safety campaign and try to address what they see as problems that need looking at ?

You're right ChelseaIan. but if it's comments are starting to bore you then please don't read. To say shut the thread is to stifle free speech.

You. absolutely right ECIPA. I did say more . The Mod has selectively misquoted me bigtime.

So does it all just come down to money in the end ?

Well , you are obviously not aware of how Charter Boat operations work . You, the hirer, charter the Skipper, he works for you on the boat. You decide your itinary, which pub to stop at et cetera. He works for you on your boat and follows your orders. His role is to impart to you his nautical knowledge and skills so you can have a chilled and relaxing holiday. Nothing more. He is as big or small a part of your crew as you decide. And learn along the way for your next 'solo' boat hire.

And however much more road carnage do you think there would be if there were no driving test or licensing at all ?

That's actually quite an offensive comment - you're right to hide behind that sofa. Nobody needs start a new yard. The Charter Skipper contract would be between hirer and skipper, no yard involvement needed except to approve the extra person onboard and, again, for one holiday hire only - in the hirers entire life.

So be it. If first timer has to have a boat with the extra accommodation then that's how it is. Remember its for one vacation only. What fun is there in having unpleasant or frightening experiences which may put you off the Broads for good. Learning may be all part of the fun for some. And you you may have a happy customer who comes back for many years to come and help the hireyards profits. (esp with staycation with us).

Impractical - maybe. How do you know ? Kill the industry - How ? Of course accidents will still happen, but there are a lot less road traffic accidents because people are taught to drive and have to show in depth knowledge of the Highway Code. No - just talking about the Broads. Agree with you the dangers are overexaggerated but the BA are on a mission and a charm offensive to make the Broads safer. I'm just adding my tuppence worth of what could help them in their goals.

Yes Vaughan , that's pretty similar to my overall suggestion of guided tuition on your first time Broads cruise. Some have misunderstood my talk of a Trainer Skipper disturbing the yard H/O and costing the yards money. Not at all, my version is the trainer Skipper being onboard the WHOLE holiday of a very first time boaters hire - esp on a large powerful motorboat. Exactly as Charter Yachts operate in the Med. Next holiday on the Broads the hirers are then considered competent and have a piece of paper to say so, after some real in depth hands on tuition first time round. Well able to go out 'solo' now. No H/O disruption and as the Charter Skipper is a free agent he has negotiated his own rate with the hirer, so no cost to the yard. People have to do this if they want to fly planes or scuba dive. What's the difference with large motorboats. ( i also realise its impossible at present due Covid ) Far from provoking controversy I like to think i'm thinking 'outside the box' here.

Mouldy. You didn't read my suggestion in much detail. My "training persons" are skippers onboard the hire boat. Much like Charter Boat skippers and this only for the first hire for a novice hirer. Also no other boats involved or needed. We are told first timers are not the biggest sector of the market although this number will admittedly grow with staycationers. Smoggy. No lengthy course or waiting to take off as the training is incorporated into your holiday. Alas I fully realise the whole idea IS a non starter, but only IMHO because of current Covid and distancing rules and regs. ( Right , off to the Third Crossing Fish Restaurant now for lunch. One for JM to add to his list of excellent eating establishments in O/B.

So what do they come for - to have a bad time.

You're right of course MM . Nothing can completely eliminate mistakes and accidents. My guarantee comments was more to improve their enjoyment in much the same way as anyone with a new task or skill to master will get great job satisfaction in doing the job successfully.

Which is exactly why I postulated several posts back that people should always be referring to the excellent page in the Broadcaster about Breydon. Should be tattooed onto their foreheads. One thing the BA get right and do very well IMO is information and advice. If people can't or won't listen then train them. I would guarantee that in many cases it would improve and enrich their whole boating experience and enjoyment.

Agreed.

My "training persons" would be self employed , a bit like Boat Surveyors doing the BSS checks. They could perhaps negotiate outside of the hire yard charges' As for professionals, well remember the old joke, An expert is defined as " A has-been under pressure" ( Ex - spurt). edit to put in Jokes section if you like.

In my turn may I say congratulations. I'm sure every boater understands and appreciates how safe the equipment and features are onboard boats today due to the BSS. Thank you for your input to that cause as detailed above (sincerely). Which is why I'm at a loss to understand your reluctance to push the boundaries even further and go the extra mile to implement more safety into the boating world. My only conclusion is that you say it would be expensive and maybe a bit of a faff to do.

So the hire companies ARE NOT in the business of making money and taking money out of the Broads holiday business. That's novel.

Well the BA want to mend it. They want to make the Broads safer. Obtaining your RYA ticket or whatever cert was decided upon would be an integral part of your holiday, not an encumbrance and may actually add to the hirers overall enjoyment and satisfaction with the holiday experience. I have an ICC ticket which allows me on French waterways, (actually I got it for Dutch canal boating) , It was obtained as an extension to one of the RYA courses I had done - I don't remember which.

But there are handling differences. I'm more likely to side swipe a moored boat with my stern in a 45 footer than in a 20 footer. (not me personally of course )