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FlyingFortress
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Posts posted by FlyingFortress
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6 minutes ago, grendel said:
I think you will find in those days it was called common sense, its just the habit of giving things fancy names thats new.
When I first started in the marine industry in 1978 we had a QM ( Quality Management) system well established.
Hardly New
That was an Oil Major though.
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49 minutes ago, Vaughan said:
Good grief.
How have we ever managed, without all this "risk based management", for the last 100 years in Broads boat hiring?
I asked this question on page one of this thread and I ask it again here : How many people have been killed or injured as a result of grounding on Breydon?
In living memory?
Yes I agree.
You do wonder how all these wonderful old boatyards survived.
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30 minutes ago, Meantime said:
Apart from the sheer cost, I can imagine the RSPB having something to say about it, never mind the way it would change the aesthetic of the area.
Lets please remember that Breydon Water is enjoyed by the many people who walk or jog along either side, who enjoy the open scenery, who go there to bird watch or paint or take pictures. Breydon is much more than just boating.
It was John Cressey who placed signs on the posts near the bottom end of Breydon to direct boats into the channel. These proved to dramatically reduce the number of grounding on Breydon. They were deemed such a good idea that eventually the BA put some more permanent ones on the posts. It is in that same area that the missing posts are now causing issues I believe. The answer therefore has to be to replace those posts as soon as possible and increase the signage. Perhaps use a VERY temporary set of buoys strung together to close the gap.
Lets remember that the BA wanted to take over control of Breydon Water. IF a proper annual check was carried out of all the posts and their condition and any that were deemed to be near end of life replaced there should be no missing posts apart from the odd one or two that maybe get knocked over. Although if properly installed and in good condition it should be difficult to knock one over. A missing post should be a rare occurrence. Currently there is two or three missing all next to each other in an area that is notorious for boats going the wrong way.
Surely it is not beyond the capabilities of the BA and rescue authorities to plot where each grounding takes place and then to increase the number of posts and signs in those such areas.
Another common area used to be coming down the Yare past the Berney Arms, boats carrying straight on towards where there used to be a pub, which never had water access, but many tried. New signage there has improved the situation there over the last year or two.
Finally the last bit has to be about education, especially of hirers. Lets face it, whilst it is not unknown for private boats to stray outside the channel, it is far more common for hire boaters. Perhaps it needs to be a standard part of the handover that the hirer is asked whether they want to cross Breydon or not. If the answer is yes they get an extra bit of tuition and a copy of the tide tables and a temporary permit that acknowledges they have had the extra tuition and understand the albeit minimal, but extra risk of crossing Breydon. Anyone crossing Breydon without the permit pays the cost of any recovery. In fact why not put a 2 or 3 page crossing Breydon Water leaflet and a copy of the current tide tables on the BA tolls website and ask toll payers to tick a declaration that they have downloaded and read it as a part of the tolls renewal process in the same way as the insurance declaration, that would then cover all the privateers as well.
Bit radical that K
Applying modern Risk based management practices to The Broads Industry
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We have a similar sized Sun Sport which I think is the old name for Waveline.
We have had it 9 years now and it was only 2 years ago I had to replace a couple of valves. This year I put a patch on a leak on the air deck in a very awkward place and it seems to have worked.
Considering the difference in price of the more traditional makes it has served us well.
Bearing in mind of course that it is only used very lightly but it does have to endure a Labrador dog being transported in it with their sharp claws.
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1 hour ago, TheQ said:
I was in the jam behind that at the flower shop when told, the jam went back past the railway bridge. Having already been in a traffic jam on Fifers way, and another up to the Coltishall NDR roundabout, where traffic was backing up off the Colitshall road so there was something up there too.. So I diverted Via Acle, was very late home..
The road is clear this morning..
I was also caught up in this one but I was going towards Norwich.
Managed to divert at the roundabouts.
The hold up in Coltishall was a set of traffic lights that have been left over from previous work and not been taken down AGAIN.
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1 hour ago, Smoggy said:
I thought there was also the ICC requirement for inland private boats in the EU as well as the CEVNI for commercial waterways Vaughan, never boated there so happy to be corrected, I know the ICC is required for coastal in EU.
Or is CEVNI just an add on endorsement to ICC for those that wish to do both?
Never boated on the Continent either but I was the subject of much teasing by some of our offshore brethren as I do not possess a CENVI or an ICC so even with my unrestricted Master Mariners certificate I would not be allowed to helm my 35' boat on continental waterways with the exception of those ports that I held a Current Pilot Exemption Certificate for.
All good natured fun though
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1 hour ago, grendel said:
and this is why we have tos here and enforce them unlike many other social media platforms, its a fine balance allowing a discussion to progress while also being aware of the responsibility we have to protect the victims of incidents.
it is gratifying to see that others recognise and highlight this responsibility we all have.
I for one am greatful for the even handed and unbiased moderation on this forum.
A shining example to other less well run platforms.
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5 minutes ago, Vaughan said:
Given that reports of this incident all suggest it was the result of a boat being blown off the channel after an engine failure, this conversation is all a bit academic, even for such an amateur mariner as myself.
I was told the conical metal tops on the newer posts are there to keep the cormorants off.
That's fair enough.
Maybe that's why they have never done it then.
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1 hour ago, Matt said:
I do get that- I did my day skipper a couple of years back and it just adds to the complexity 😃
But on Breydon, sometimes there are posts, some are painted better than others, some have a white cap on, some don’t, sometimes there are no posts, sometimes there are buoys. It could just be made better.
Have long thought that it would be easy to cut the tops off the red posts to give them a square top while leaving the conical tops on the green. This kind of reflects the IALA shape of Lateral buoyage.
I know only those with some kind of sea knowledge or experience would understand this but it is also helpful at times of low light or sun dazzle for them
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On 20/04/2022 at 19:54, mikeyboy1966 said:
That is a big boat,
no wonder the moorings get busy with these behemoths
Blimey.
Wish I could afford one.
Priced up a new version of mine recently.
220k 😵
Can afford but can't justify.
Decision made 2 years ago when new version was 180k
Stick with ours .
Old but good.
The boat is an NBD.
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Norfolk Mountain Rescue based at The Ship in Reedham
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Further links thrown up in the search just add confusion to what a Pilot Boat actually does.
Pilot Boats simply put Pilots on board ships.
They do not guide ships.
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Thought it was fairly good myself.
Obviously pitched at the first timer or occasional Broads User.
There are still quite a few folks wearing masks in close proximity to others in this country and indeed there is a current thread running on here about it.
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59 minutes ago, Smoggy said:
Outward at the top going forward.
That is the more conventional/European way of doing things. The Americans tend to go with inward turning but one benefit is you can walk a vessel sideways with complete control without tide or bow thruster. A very neat trick that was shown to me when I had to take out a 4 screw crew boat out to an oil rig inThe Caspian Sea. The outboard props were outward turning and the inboard props inward. My natural instinct was to use the outboard props for manoeuvring to give me the best twin screw effect. I was shown that by using the inboard props and a combination of rudder (one for each prop) I could control the sideways movement of the bow with the props and the stern with the rudders. Fore and aft movement was controlled with variations of the throttles.
Very neat.
The reason I asked was if you had the American system I could have shown you this very neat trick.
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2 hours ago, BrundallNavy said:
Yes you can A company called Jet Trusters do one but again over 6k for a bow thruster and 9k for both ends.
That's a tad pricey
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15 hours ago, stumpy said:
A alternative would be to fit a Kitchen rudder - no need for a reverse gear then.
Had to look that one up.
Similar to a twin Schilling (spelling?) Rudder set up or the reverse thrust deflectors on a jet aircraft. I believe the use of an individual schilling rudder in a twin set up can be used to maintain directional control whilst performing a braking function on a vessel. A very desirable function indeed.
A former colleague of mine was a pilot at GTY when one of the ferries had a twin schilling set up. He did say it could be a tad challenging.
I think the vessel was called The Ballard and was quite infamous for getting wedged across the river with its bow on the Gorleston side and the stern on the Yarmouth side after blacking out on a flood tide.. very similar to the situation the Ever Given Found herself in Suez but thankfully not aground so came free when the tide changed.
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2 hours ago, Smoggy said:
Once understood prop walk can be you friend when reversing into a spot, on mine using one engine it's a complete nightmare due to complete lack of keel, on both the ot's always the outside engine in reverse to take speed off and the inside engine forward to steer in to bank, this kicks the stern in nicely. (as long as no-one is looking otherwise it all goes wrong)
Outward or Inward turner's Smoggy?
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I was also going to say at 4.5k I think I would have a bow thruster fitted but then thought . Can you do that on a wooden boat? Can't say I have ever seen one. Is there any reason why not?
Or maybe just learn to live with the prop walk at that price.
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2 hours ago, BrundallNavy said:
The Max prop in question has no external control it just reverses when the shaft spins the opposite way. They claim It reduces propwalk and gives over 90% efficiency in reverse. But as people have said the cost for my boat would be around 4.5k. Back to the drawing board.
Oops Sorry.
Looks like a I was barking up the wrong tree with my post earlier.
A CPP shaft does not reverse.
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I was not sure which system you were asking about but now it has become clear it's Controllable Pitch Propeller CPP then I think most is covered above.
There are in my experience certain know hazards in CPP with regards to handling.
The ability to feather the pitch that is align the blades with the water flow is a big advantage on a sailing boat and I can imagine helpful on a multi engine power boat that sufferers a single engine failure. Never experienced this but can relate to experience on multi engine propeller aircraft. When simulating single engine failure on my multi course the instructor would pull the throttle back to idle and then when I had gone through the correct procedure would then advance that throttle about one quarter to simulate the loss of drag due to feathering.
Putting aside specialized vessels there are generally 3 types of propulsion systems in ships.
Gearbox very similar to what we have on our boats, tends to be smaller vessels
CPP tends to be on medium sized ships that do a lot of manoeuvring.
The big daddy is the big diesel directly coupled to a shaft. To stop the prop you stop the engine.To go astern you change the firing order of the pistons and the engine runs backwards.
My later seagoing career was on Offshore Supply Vessels such as are seen in GTY and these are specialized vessels which are very overpowered for their size but have to be very highly manouverable .An example the lowest powered OSV I was on had 4000 shp and was 65m long. An 80m coaster may have 400shp. I became a big fan of CPP. Not so much when I became a pilot and found the pitch very slow acting. In fact I am on record saying I would prefer the stop start engines.
So CPP
As others have said above cost and complexity would be a major factor why these are not used on small boats.
CPP does not eliminate prop walk. It can be quite violent on some ships. In others it can be unpredictable sometimes acting one way and sometimes the other.
There is also major danger with CPP which needs to be known about.
When the pitch is set to zero the blades do not feather but form a spinning disc in front of the rudder. This can cause the rudder to stall due to having no water flow over it this is particularly prominent if you reduce pitch quickly. Think about coming into a mooring and you put your engine into neutral you will have rudder authority for quite some time after the prop has stopped turning. With CPP you can slow right down to almost nothing and still maintain steerage PROVIDED you slow down gradually. If you don't you will stall the rudder , take a large sheer and have a heck of a job regaining control the only option may be a crash stop, easy done in a small boat but not so easy with a ship.
Think about that yacht that makes an unexpected tack into your path. Very often a reduction in speed is all that is needed, not so good if you stall the rudder and sheer towards him.
Hope this has been helpful.
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1 hour ago, Oddfellow said:
You make it all sound so simple. 15 minutes doing this work is 15 minutes. When an engineer has another 20 boats to do, what's 15minutes x 20? 5 Hours in old money. How viable does that sound now? Not convinced? The boat is vacated by 10am and needs to be engineered, repaired and cleaned by 2pm. That's a 4 hour window. Perhaps you are now beginning to understand the problem.
Let me compound the problem for you. Every time you loosen the nut on the battery terminal and remove from the post to do a test, you are weakening the post and the terminal. You may easily damage the post and terminal too meaning that you can't get a good electrical connection when you next reconnect it. This leads to a failure point. Maybe the engineer notices its not nipping up properly and tightens further, bending the clamp bolt in the process and further damaging the post and connection. Maybe the terminal snaps and he has to fetch another from stores that's a 5 minute walk away.
All these things are not only possible but highly likely.
It's not as simple as you think. Nowhere near,Andy please
I never for one moment suggested that every boat needed a drop test every time it went out on hire.
I was merely asking does such a thing as planned maintenance exists in a large fleet.
Far be it for me to suggest a PM schedule but surely the batteries can be routinely tested and certainly before early hirers go out.
I was asking Vaughan what his PM schedule was and did someone have to be in a position of responsibility to sign off these boats fit for purpose.
Yes I do understand that it is sometimes a box ticking excercise but you are also protecting yourself against liability.
Townsend Thorenson were charged with corporate manslaughter over the Herald incident and I do fear for the outcome of the NBD death at GTY a couple of years ago.
As one who turned down a job at MAIB I only hope that there is a good quality investigation but I don't hold up much hope.
I will continue my discourse on another post as what I am about to say is controversial and is sure to be deleted.
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Whoops off topic again
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40 minutes ago, BroadAmbition said:
We've done it before now, especially with teams of two on t board. Strawberry Mivvies can sort of grasp the tactics behind it, Crabfats with a lot of gentle instruction, Pongo's - Not a prayer
Griff
Blimey
That's all a bit of a strange language to me..
It was a while since I heard it.
10 Pinter's and munchers.
40 years this week you know
Breydon Water Catches People Out Again!
in Broads Chat
Posted
Suppose you have a point.
Without checking I don't think such a thing as an Oil Tanker existed 100 years before 1978
Little risk of a major oil spill then so no requirement for a risk assessment