Electrical Upgrades ...... Wish Me Luck!

[Karizma]

The next visit to the boat was to upgrade the DC distribution fuse board(s) so I could replace all the old Garland fuses with 'blade type' fuses.

I decided to install 2 x Blue Sea Fuse Blocks that use ST Blade fuses, which allows me to have dedicated fuses for each circuit and eliminate all the 'doubling up' of wires to 1 Garland fuse, as there wasn't enough fuse holders available with the old system!

Still a little tidying up to do with the wires, but it doesn't look too bad 

These new domestic fuse blocks are 'fed' via a domestic isolation switch that is connected to a Victron Energy 6-Way Mega Fuse Holder with Busbar, again this makes sure that every cable is protected by a Mega fuse. Also connected to this is the output from the 2 x DC-DC chargers (60 amp fuses), and the DC feed to the Inverter (200 amp fuse).

It was also time to install the Victron Smart Shunt and make sure this was the only connection between this and the negative terminal on the domestic battery bank. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this works and get a good understanding of the power usage, and capacity left in the domestic battery bank at any point in time, something thats just been guess work up to now.

On 18/10/2023 at 17:48, dom said:

Two alternators in parallel doesn't sit comfortably with me. 

The only simple solution I can think of is to replicate the setup on a typical dual engine system. Connect each alternator to a standard lead acid battery - one for engine cranking, then use the second "spare" battery to run a single item, such as your fridge or water pump.

I've also decided to take on board the advice given by Dom (thanks Dom ) and install an addition separate battery to connect the 2nd alternator to; and then take a feed from this for the 2nd DC-DC charger. This will provide a level of redundancy (compared to them both being connected to the same circuit) if one of the alternators stopped working due to a short circuit, and prevents any potential issues between the two alternators - so this will be done next time we are down.

Getting there slowly ........

[Bikertov]

I am following this thread with much interest - looks like I have some major rewiring to do on A Frayed Knot in a similar way, to add fusing, reconfigure the inverter, possibly add solar etc.

Although at this stage of my experience I'm not sure how much I can do myself, it is really useful to see what you are doing so I can get the boatyard to do it 'right'.

[Karizma]

Bikertov - thanks for the comment

Trust me I'm no electrician, I'd class myself as an experienced diy'er (as I hate paying somebody to do something I could do myself #yorkshireman ) ................. but I believe if you take your time mapping out what you currently have, spend time researching marine electrical YouTube videos (to get best practise) and follow some relatively simple guidelines (fuse sizes, wire thicknesses etc), then you could, like me, have a go at this yourself.

The benefits are that you get to understand your boat so much better and are more able to trouble shoot in the future.

But, lets wait till I've finished before I get too carried away !!!!

[Bikertov]

Karizma - Trust me, I'm very happy to learn from your mistakes  

I have been doing a lot of research and YouTube viewing myself too, but have to weigh up the time I have available to actually do stuff, and any specialist tools I need to buy etc.

Anyway, I'm not in a big rush, and will start my own boat thread at some point to get guidance and opinions on all the maintenance and upgrades that are needed, rather than hijack your thread.

[Karizma]

This weekend was spent finishing things off and turning the ignition key to see if everything still works!

The 'unswitched' domestic 6-way Mega fuse holder with Busbar was completed, supplying fused supplies to:

1 - supply directly from the domestic battery bank protected with a 250Amp fuse

2 - DC supply to the Victron Energy MultiPlus 12v Inverter Charger with a 200 Amp fuse

3 & 4 - the output cables from the 2 x Orion-Tr Smart 12/12V-30A non-isolated DC-DC Chargers with 60 Amp fuses

5 - supply to the domestic isolator switch supplying a midi fuse block for the 2 x Blue Sea Fuse Blocks (previously shown) with a 100 Amp fuse

Next was the Engine battery unswitched' Mega fuse holder with Busbar, allowing the following connections;

1 - supply from the 1st 60 Amp alternator protected with a 80 amp fuse

2 - supply from the 1st Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger with 60 Amp fuses

3 - supply to the 'switched' Victron Lynx distributor supplying power to the Engine, Bow thruster and Central Canopy motor.

As well as installing a new Negative Bus Bar to reduce the number of negative cables going directly to the engine battery.

We then installed a Midi fuse block supplying the 2 x Blue Sea Fuse Blocks previously shown, and an additional negative bus bar to again reduce the number of cables going directly to the batteries. Along side both of these, we installed the Victron Cerbo S-GX which is the interface between all the Victron equipment and the Victron GX Touch 50 monitor to be installed later.

Next was installing what I will call a 'buffer battery' to allow a connection between the input from the 2nd 60 Amp alternator and the input to the 2nd DC-DC Charger, as recommended by @Dom earlier in this thread. Again these cables are all protected by Mega fuses.

At the moment I haven't connected any other devices to this battery, though that is an option in the future if I want.

Finally it was time to wire up the new AGM batteries with new 2/0 AWG (70 mm2) cables, protecting the cable with a Blue Sea 5189 Fuse (250A) and Fuse Terminal Block (can't be seen in this photo), as well as tidying up all the cabling to the engine battery and installing a 250 Amp Mega fuse, again to protect the cable.

I'm pleased with the difference seen between the 'old' and 'new' wiring in the battery boxes!

 

Now for the moment of truth ..................

[Smoggy]

7 hours ago, Karizma said:

Now for the moment of truth ..................

Keep your options open.....

[Karizma]

2 hours ago, Smoggy said:

Keep your options open.....

@Smoggy - ho ye of little faith 

[Karizma]

PS: with the amount of wire I've taken out of the boat - there's far less to catch fire now!

[Karizma]

So after approx 2 weeks worth of work spread over a couple of months the electrical upgrades have finished (though I'm sure I'll be 'tweaking' going forward!).

Once all the Victron equipment had been powered up I needed to connect to them individually on the Victron App via bluetooth to allow any firmware updates and to set the individual parameters regarding battery types and charging profiles I wanted.

Turning the ignition key was a little apprehensive after all the work that had been done, though I was quietly confident as we had done this in an as controlled a way as possible........... and thankfully it all went well.

Everything worked as it should do, and the amount of data you get from the individual pieces of equipment is excellent, all summarised on the Victron GX Touch 50 monitor or via the App on my phone via bluetooth.

 

 

One of the interesting exercises that we were able to do was to try and turn everything off (apart from the main isolating switches) and see if we still had current draw from the batteries. Initially we were seeing about a 5 Amp draw, and we realised we'd left the fridge on! so turned that off and we were still getting a 0.5Amp draw. So looking round the boat we noticed we'd got some USB adapters (with lights on) connected to the 12 volt cigarette sockets and as we took these out the amps dropped to zero - showing just how sensitive the shunt was.

Knowing the 'state' of the batteries (both domestic and engine) and the amount of amps being either, put into the batteries via the alternators whilst travelling, or taken out of the batteries when the inverter is on and Mrs Karizma is boiling the kettle for a cuppa via the touch screen I find very interesting.

All in all, I'm well pleased with the outcome and still have lots to learn now I have some new 'toys' to play with!

 

[Karizma]

With having 3 weeks between our visits to the boat I thought it would be a good idea to take a 'project' home with me to keep me busy until this weekend (when we are back down for the weekend), so off came both alternators before we left so I could strip them down, and if needed, refurb them. They were both working ok, but I'm sure they might have never been touched in 30 years, so well worth a little preventative maintenance.

Having never done one of these before, I viewed a few YouTube videos, and then I began stripping one of them down (just in case I messed it up and decided to leave the other one well alone!).

The first thing off was the Regulator to check the Brushes, and apparently the minimum recommended length is 5mm. One of mine was 10mm and the other one 5mm, so new brushes were needed. It didn't look easy (or maybe possible?) to just change the brushes without damaging the regulator, so I decided to try and source the regulator (if they weren't too expensive).

The next thing was to take off the Rectifiers, which meant unsoldering 3 wires and then I was able to check that they were electrically ok (again after watching a video on YouTube), which explained that the B+, B- & D+ terminals should read  between 450-650 mV with a multimeter set on diode - thankfully mine was easily within that range - so all good.

After then splitting the alternator apart (which took some persuading with a screwdriver & hammer!), i was able to check the bearings in the front housing and the back of the Rotor. The front (larger) one felt ok, but the smaller one on the back of the rotor wasn't as smooth as it could be, so I decided that new bearings might as well be fitted whilst it was all stripped down. Taking out the front bearing proved to be easy with the extractor kit.

 

Taking the Rear Bearing off was also relatively easy, but the next decision was whether I was going to replace the Split Ring or leave it alone. The truth was, I didn't think it looked too bad, but I'd (hopefully) never be stripping these alternators down like this again, so it would be a shame not to do a 'full' refurb and replace this as well. So again, on to YouTube to see how easy or hard it was, and whether I could source replacement parts.

 

 

My workshop bench was starting to look a mess, with lots of individual parts - I just needed to remember how it all went back together !!!!!

Next was to try and source all the parts for a 30+ year old alternator from the faint numbers that were still visible on the rear bearing cover cap:

Valeo 14v 60A

A13 N 234

2541451

B3

More to follow ....................

 

[grendel]

I can remember driving to work, removing the alternator, popping it down the road to the local auto electrical shop for refurbishment, then getting it back at just before 5pm, refitting it to the car and driving home, generally I think the brushes come on the regulator.

[Karizma]

Sourcing the individual parts wasn't the easiest, though would almost be impossible without the internet!

Searching part numbers, cross referencing them with other websites info etc, I finally managed to find the right parts, and found suppliers to replace the Regulator, Front and Rear Bearings and the Split Ring. I decided that if I was going to do it for one, I might as well order everything to allow me to do the same to the 2nd Alternator.

I also found on YouTube that if I was going to do the job 'right' I'd needed some 'Liquid Insulating Rubber' to coat / protect the soldered connections once completed (as the original connections were coated in some sort of rubber).

So 3 different suppliers on flee bay gave me the best prices/options for the parts I needed:

• Front bearing - NTN 6303 LLU C3 17x47x14mm Rubber Sealed Deep Groove Ball Bearing
• Rear bearing - NTN 6200 LLU C3 10x30x9mm Rubber Sealed Deep Groove Ball Bearing
• Alternator Slip Ring - For Massey Ferguson Renault Valeo 2104248 2181726 2181727.
• Regulator - A13N234 873770 VOLVO PENTA ALTERNATOR REGULATOR YV7736 593135 IP736 12/14V

What I also learnt was the 'codes/meanings' relating to bearings, and the fact that the bearings I needed were classified as C3 - which means that this bearing has a higher (internal) clearance than normal due to the high tempreatures that the alternator might experience - good to know.

Removing the Split Ring was a right pain; which needed pliers, the Dremel and a hammer to get it off, making sure I didn't damage / break the wire connections on both sides of the rotor. Though once the rotor was cleaned up, putting the new one on was easy as long as you were careful to make sure the position was correct before you started tapping it down in place on the spline.

Next was soldering the connections back in place and coating the connections with the liquid rubber, before tapping the small bearing on the shaft.

 

Then it was just a case of replacing the front bearing (tapped it in with a small hammer) and putting it all back together, making sure the rectifier was back in place and re-soldered to the 3 wires.

Everything went back pretty easily, once it had been cleaned and brushed down.

A few more electrical checks were then done (following YouTube guidance) to make sure the Rotor / Spilt Ring was 'isolated' from the casing and everything was connected correctly, then it was degrease the outer casing and spray it with Nanni blue paint to make it look nice.

Once this was done, it was time to do exactly the same with the 2nd alternator (as the confidence was good) prior to putting them back on the boat.

I'll let you know if they work ok after I put them back on the boat this weekend, and then hopefully they should be good for another 30 years!!!

[Karizma]

9 minutes ago, grendel said:

I can remember driving to work, removing the alternator, popping it down the road to the local auto electrical shop for refurbishment, then getting it back at just before 5pm, refitting it to the car and driving home, generally I think the brushes come on the regulator.

Hi Grendel, The first one took me nearly a week to do ...... the 2nd one was done in 6 hours today. Pretty easy when you know how and have all the tools out and available.

[Karizma]

though I'll not start celebrating until I know they work !!!!!!

[Smoggy]

I hate to say it but ebay bearings would worry me, there's millions of cheap chinese bearings about all with fake packaging and substandard metals, I would go to a reputable bearing supplier (often on the local industrial estate) and specify SKF or similar, they will be standard sizes and possibly off the shelf, same with seals.

I've seen bearings you can put in a vice and bend both races and balls, they should shatter.

[dom]

Panks Auto Electrical on Heigham Street in Norwich always used to be a good place to try for parts. It's been a lot of years since I last used them though, so not sure whether that still applies. I suspect the number of people outside professional remanufacturers doing this type of work is probably tiny these days.

[Karizma]

2 hours ago, Smoggy said:

I hate to say it but ebay bearings would worry me, there's millions of cheap chinese bearings about all with fake packaging and substandard metals, I would go to a reputable bearing supplier (often on the local industrial estate) and specify SKF or similar, they will be standard sizes and possibly off the shelf, same with seals.

Hi Smoggy, Agree completely. I only use reputable UK suppliers, that usually have a main website and also an eBay offering. The main reason for using eBay is their option to have items delivered to a local Argos store for pick up - super convenient when you don't want to stay in all day for a delivery.

SKF, NTN and FAG are my 'go to' manufactures - I use to deal with bearing manufactures when I worked for a large uk aero engine manufacturer and if they use them for their aero engines, hopefully they'll be ok for my alternators 

[Karizma]

50 minutes ago, dom said:

 I suspect the number of people outside professional remanufacturers doing this type of work is probably tiny these days.

I agree, not sure how much someone would charge for servicing an alternator like what I've just done?, but there cant be a lot of money in it as a completely new one (like for like) only cost abt £150 each.

[dom]

13 minutes ago, Karizma said:

I agree, not sure how much someone would charge for servicing an alternator like what I've just done?, but there cant be a lot of money in it as a completely new one (like for like) only cost abt £150 each.

I've changed plenty of brushes in the past, but I can't recall ever having replaced a set of bearings - probably largely because anything I saw was already dead/dying and it was far simpler to just fit a new unit.

I suspect it'd be uneconomical to do commercially, unless you're running a dedicated operation. £150/6 hours = £25/hr, which isn't generally anything like a viable labour rate for a business taking costs and parts into consideration. That's assuming you're charging £150 - in reality, it'd need to be significantly less. I've spent quite a lot of time trying to explain this type of thing to customers in the past, especially with things like CD players, with a high cost, but where repairs are very demanding.

Good way to save several £100s doing it DIY though, if you've got the time and patience.

[Bikertov]

37 minutes ago, Karizma said:

I agree, not sure how much someone would charge for servicing an alternator like what I've just done?, but there cant be a lot of money in it as a completely new one (like for like) only cost abt £150 each.

Interesting how you have gone for a DIY refurb.

You say an exchange item would be around £150, so what would you say you have spent on parts for the refurb ?

[Karizma]

1 hour ago, Bikertov said:

Interesting how you have gone for a DIY refurb.

You say an exchange item would be around £150, so what would you say you have spent on parts for the refurb ?

Hi Bikertov, 

Front bearing = £5.23 each

Rear bearing = £3.86 each

Slip ring = £12.84 each

Regulator (including Brushes) = £24.99 each (though brushes only would have been £3.55 a set if I could have got them out of the regulator - which I might still try and do once I know everything works ok!)

So all in, abt £50 per unit, and as @dom said, if you have the time and patience then why not have a go and learn a bit along the way.

Kept me from under Mrs Karizma's feet for a few days anyway 

Finally, it will be interesting to see if I get an increase in output from each of the alternators? though I'm not expecting one as I did this only as preventative maintenance.

[MargeandParge]

We say we'll done you. Not a job for the faint hearted. 

Only thing I would do is go and pick up the parts on my own as if Marge is in Argos there is always something she needs while we are there . 

To know your way around an alternator is a big string to your bow it will probably help with starters as well. 

Kindest Regards Marge and Parge 

[Karizma]

Quick update ....... Alternators work ! Phew, that was a relief !

Couldn't really tell if there's a change in amperage output as both battery banks were already fully charged, though I did notice that the red ALT lights on the dash went out with less revs than normal on initial start up - which I guess is good.

So hopefully they'll now be good for another few hundred taco hours, and if nothing else, they look better now they've been resprayed.