Low Sulphur Diesel

[Mowjo]

It's a subject that's been bugging me mark, I found out that Mercedes actually recommend adding a bit of two stroke to their diesels in some countries, and as it a German manufacturer that did the testing I can only think Merc, though it is mentioned on the Porsch site, from what I can work out it mainly effects Pre 2000 engines, so that's around half the boats on the Broads it could affect, the other thing I found out is that if you have your pump refurbished or buy an exchange unit from a reputable place the seals they now fit are made for the low sulphur fuels,

one of the main reasons I started this post, wasn't because of the problem it was how to deal with the fact I had no idea how to shut the engine down, I don't scare easily but it scared the C**p out of me! now I know all you need to do is starve the engine of air by blocking the air filter, but a word of warning because I read some bad stuff, NEVER block it with rag if the air filter is off, the engine can suck it in and eat it causing even more damage, and NEVER block it with your hand, they didn't say why but the guy ended up in hospital with serious damage to his hand,,

 

Frank,,,, 

[Oddfellow]

Mowjo makes a valid point about stopping the engine.

 

A rag or anything small enough to be sucked through the air intake of any engine will be pulled through the manifold and into the cylinders through the valves. This is likely to result in bent valves, damaged valve guides, damaged pistons and a very expensive rebuild or replacement engine. However, if it's running away, you've got a choice to get the hell off and possibly watch your engine destroy itself with the additional possibility of it damaging the boat or stop it any way you can and put yourself in potential danger.

 

Using your hand can be dangerous too as the engine's need for air is huge. The vacuum is incredible and could cause significant damage to your hand.

 

Kinda dosen't leave a lot of options, does it?

 

Stay safe. Check it regularly!

[Guest]

.......I may be an old cynic, but have you tried putting the first sentence of the 'factual evidence' into a search engine? The whole article turns up on forum after forum, in all parts of the globe, and I have been unable to find the source. The posters refer to having found it on another forum, or a friend receiving it in an email. If anyone can find the original source, I would be very interested. One reference was to an old article, which the poster couldn't find again..........

 

I have no professional knowledge of this myself, so I'm not casting aspersions on the validity of the principle of adding two stroke oil to diesel, but Paladine's comment outlines something we have to be wary of when "fact finding" on the Internet.

 

Many years ago, Winston Churchill said “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”. How prophetic that was !  The Internet provides exactly that facility, quite literally. 

 

Anyone can say almost anything, and that can then be cut and paste by others, hundreds of times, quickly becoming worldwide "knowledge", without ever having any genuine factual provenance.

 

Just a thought.....

[Mowjo]

Your right Strow and Paladin, I've mega searched the net to try and find the actual source of the info, the nearest I can find is on the Mercedes forum but again it's unconfirmed, it's said that Merc tested it on some of their cars due to the iffy diesel you can get abroad,  but if you type in "low sulphur diesel fuel problems" the facts speak for themselves, the pump seals and adding a bit of two stroke to help the problem seems widely known even on the YBW site, it just seems no-one has told us lot here on the Broads, also the fact we have had three go in our yard resulting in one completely destroyed engine, I think Andy mentioned he has had three, Clive Richo mentions they have been swapping the pumps on their older boats is enough to say there's a problem, so far the only info I can find on curing it is have your pump re-built and they should fit it with the new seals for low sulphur fuel or add the bit of mineral two stroke at 200 - 1, my pump is away for a re-build so should have the new ones,

 

Frank,,,, 

[Paladin]

When we lost the ‘old’ spec. diesel, there were mutterings about the adverse effects of low sulphur and bio-diesel (which seems to be the worst of the two) on older engines, and I did get a bit worried it. I did a lot of searching on motor forums and elsewhere, and came up with this rationale. Bearing in mind that anyone can say anything, as had already been pointed out, this is only my personal take on it.

 

Sulphur is added to diesel as a lubricant. It’s not the sulphur content that’s causing the problems. Lowering the amount means less lubrication. Up to 5% biodiesel can be added to compensate for the reduced sulphur content, without having to be declared at the pump. But biodiesel dissolves the older type of rubbers used in seals and pipes, so what is the alternative?

 

2T oil is added to the petrol for 2-stroke engines, because such engines don’t have a separate reservoir of oil, and the additive provides the necessary engine lubrication. So 2T oil is not harmful to engines and is proved to provide lubricity. The 200:1 ratio is such that there would be no problem burning off the additive. All the recommendations were to use JASCO-C spec., low ash 2T oil.

 

So I figured that adding the 2T oil could not cause any harm to my engine, and could be beneficial. Subjectively, there has been an improvement in starting, and the smoothness of running has improved (less noise and vibration through the boat).

 

Now for the bio-diesel. There seems to be little doubt that the greater the proportion of bio-diesel added to the fuel the greater the risk of seals and pipes in older engines being dissolved and problems occurring.  Here is the John Deere advice  (use the links on the left of their page to get further info). This technical article  says there is doubt about its stability when fuel is stored for a long time.  As my engine is 30 years old, and I don’t use much more than two tanks-full of diesel a year, I don’t want any percentage of biodiesel anywhere near it.

 

I would advise anyone to firstly do their own research, then make up their own minds what to do. The biggest problem seems to be the bio-diesel. If anyone is concerned, ask your usual supplier if their diesel contains any bio-diesel (also referred to as FAME [Fatty-acid methyl ester]).

 

I know that Boulter's in Horning only supply FAME-free diesel, because I've asked them. Perhaps other members could ask their usual supplier and post the results.

[Mowjo]

Just been checking on some of the boating sites and there seem to be a lot more reports of it causing diesel bug as well, the F.A.M.E attracts water causing the bug, this just gets better,,,

 

Frank,,,

[Paladin]

Just been checking on some of the boating sites and there seem to be a lot more reports of it causing diesel bug as well, the F.A.M.E attracts water causing the bug, this just gets better,,,

 

Frank,,,

Now that you mention it, I've also been using Soltron for many years, both in my current boat and my previous one, which had a BMC 1.5 diesel, and was easier to start and smoother running (if a BMC 1.5 can ever be said to be smooth running!) after a few applications.. Whether my trouble-free boating would have been as trouble-free had I not been using it, I'll never know.

[Mowjo]

You must have read my mind Paladin, just been checking all the Boating sites and the Soltron come's highly recommended, and as I'm only 15 minutes from ASAP I'll be investing in some, as for trouble free! it's always a "what if" situation and you never know until you "don't"  of course you also have the "should have" and that's worse than the "don't" because you know! it would have worked if you did! and that's the reason I'm always confused,,

 

Frank,,,,

[10B]

As a regular reader of "The Forum" I was reading this topic and felt a little bit concerned about the "running away" issue.

It seemed by the discussion that it was very hard to stop the engine when in this mode.

Then a spur of the moment thought came to me which I thought may be worth sharing with you all.

If this "running away" is such a major issue could a fuel cut off tap be fitted just before the fuel pump or between the fuel pump and the injectors.

How long would it take to burn the fuel in the pipe before the engine cutting out?

Or would my idea not be feasible.

Over to the mechanics.

[Paladin]

10B, I'm certainly no mechanic, but my understanding is that somehow (magic?) diesel gets pumped into the oil sump and is then drawn past the piston rings into the combustion chambers. The engine then has so much unmetered fuel available that it revs uncontrollably and eventually explodes. Turning off the fuel will do nothing, as it's not drawing the fuel from the fuel lines anymore.

 

Looking on the WWW, it seems that, in some jurisdictions, lorries have to be fitted with an air shut-off valve, to be able to starve the engine of air, should a runaway occur. This is not just a situation associated with bio-diesel and the failure of seals and pipes. Apparently, it can happen if the sump is overfilled with oil, which is why correct oil levels are so important.

[Mowjo]

Hi 10b, if what I read is correct and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong or even add some better info, the problem is that when the injector pump seal goes, the pump actually pumps diesel into the sump, turning the contents of the sump into fuel by diluting the oil, it becomes so thin that it by-passes the pistons and causes the run on by using the oil and fuel mix from the sump, meaning the engine will run on until you starve the engine of air or you have used the contents of the sump, even the engine pull stop has no effect as will turning the fuel supply off, the danger is that when it happens the engine goes to full revs and will usually blow something before the sump is empty, if your lucky you may notice your oil level going up and becoming very thin, in my case it happened in less than 1/4 mile with no warning until it ran on, I checked my oil before setting off, and when I got to our pump out pontoon the engine just went mad, so no warning until it actually happened in my case,,

 

Regards Frank,,,,  

 

 

Paladin beat me to it by seconds, but what he said anyway,,

[Happy]

This is a little worrying to say the least!  Is there any prior warning that this is likely to happen, or does everything just 'let rip'?  Regards Alan

[Happy]

Sorry Mowjo, answered my question.  You must have posted whilst I was writing!

Regards Alan  

[Mowjo]

Alan! I would think under normal circumstances you would get some warning, the classic symptom seems to be rising oil on the dipstick that is thinner than normal with an added smell of diesel, in my case I think what happened was even though I checked the oil before starting out, the boat hadn't been started for a couple of months and the seal had failed or perished in that time, if I had started it then checked the oil I'm sure I would have seen the rise on the dipstick, when we got towed back to our pontoon the sump was empty, I refilled it with oil and ran the engine for 20 seconds just to make sure nothing was seized and in that short time the sump filled with diesel so that's how bad my leak was, I don't think it's anything to overly worry about, but something we should all be aware of so we can check for it, and know how to stop it if the engine does run on, because that run on at full revs will scare the C**p out of anyone,,

 

Frank,,  

[10B]

Thanks for all your feedbacks, my theory sounded too easy.

Have now cancelled my visit to the patents office.

[Guest]

Thinking of alternatives, how feasible would some sort of shaft brake be ?

 

One of the solutions with road vehicle diesels seems to be applying the brake firmly while in a high gear, as the engine does not have the torque to overcome the resistance of the brakes.

 

I know some auxiliary powered sailing craft have shaft brakes to stop wear when sailing, but maybe they wouldn't be strong enough for a runaway diesel.

 

Failing that, maybe a practical precaution would be to make some sort of rigid plug for the air intake, and leave it permanently on emergency standby in the engine bay.

[Guest]

it looks as though quite a few people have devised various air intake shut off valves !

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1292&bih=674&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=blocking+diesel+air+runaway&oq=blocking+diesel+air+runaway&gs_l=img.3...73074.73570.0.76089.2.2.0.0.0.0.296.398.0j1j1.2.0....0...1c.1.37.img..2.0.0.oyMmQfGgwwg

[Paladin]

There is an international company with a branch in Bury St Edmunds that makes a variety of manual and automatic shut-off valves. I would think that if diesel runaway becomes a serious widespread problem, the BSS will insist on such devices being fitted

[Gordon]

I haven't read any of the road vehicle threads but I could imagine that trying to stall a racing engine would not be easy. Could it trash the transmission? As far as choking the air inlet of a diesel I bet that isn't easy certainly that old lister in the 70s wasn't having any of it how much air does a Bmc 1.5 or 4018 gulp in a short run. I bet it's boatloads. Rather than cobble up air cut offs. How about having a co2 extinguisher ready in the engine bay if run away is a concern. You can get em for a tenner on eBay. Do you reckon it would work. I was told it soon stopped that old Lister genny

[Oddfellow]

I think the best advice is this.

 

If you've got an old engine, particularly a BMC, and you haven't had the pump overhauled, get it done.

 

Dreaming up solutions to shut the engine down if a runaway occurs is simply dealing with the symptoms rather than ensuring that the most likely cause of this happening has been removed.

 

Believe me, if it happens to you, you would prefer to be somewhere else rather than panicking trying to out enough pressure on a break or suffocating the engine.

[Mowjo]

I think I have an Idea that may work inspired by my Dog, It's called an Airball, I just found one of her old play balls it's around the size of a tennis ball and solid hard rubber, my Idea is drill a hole right through it, put a piece of rope through the hole, and hang it in the engine bay where it's easy to get at, instant air tight plug, sorted,,,

 

Frank,,,

[Mowjo]

Andy! I hate sensible answers like yours:clap and I totally agree with what you say, but you know us boaters if it ain't broke we don't fix it, so it's nice to have some way of shutting it down if it does, to be honest the engine bay on my Hampton 25 has easy access as it in the cabin and just means lifting a seat panel off, but even knowing how to stop it running on, I'm not so sure I would hang about in the cabin in case the worst happened, I'm pretty brave but my legs are cowards and would run,  if on a boat like an Elysian where you have to lift the floor for engine access, put you head over an engine that could explode while your trying to block the intake, I'm afraid it would be goodbye boat hello insurance, I might be brave but I'm not stupid, I'm with you! prevention is better than cure, so my pump re-build at £150+ is money well spent,,

[MBA Marine]

Having the injector pump overhauled is what happens in an ideal world, but this is the real world, and other than a few that read the stories and get really keen it aint gonna happen plus its an expensive thing to when you may not know if the pump has been overhauled already with new seals. how about nice big heavy bath towel, or your mrs's best dressing gown lift your engine cover and shuv it over the air intake, job done then get your pump sorted. dont grab your snotty hanky or the sratty bit of rag you keep next to the engine to wipe your oil spills, and offer it as your engine will just swallow it!

[Guest]

I think the best advice is this.

 

If you've got an old engine, particularly a BMC, and you haven't had the pump overhauled, get it done.

 

Dreaming up solutions to shut the engine down if a runaway occurs is simply dealing with the symptoms rather than ensuring that the most likely cause of this happening has been removed.

 

Believe me, if it happens to you, you would prefer to be somewhere else rather than panicking trying to out enough pressure on a break or suffocating the engine.

 

That's fine for anyone with an old BMC Andy, but the impression I got after following this thread and it's links is that it can affect almost any Diesel engine, fitted in boats or cars.

 

When I Googled "runaway" and "VW", it sounds as though it can even  potentially happen to my 15 year old VW  Camper engine.

[Mowjo]

Andy! I'd use the Wife's Bra but I only want to cover the air intake not the whole boat,,
 
Strow! I agree from what I read it mainly affects Diesel engines built before 2000, , as you say it's on the VW site, Mercedes, Porsche, and John Deere, just to mention a few, so it seems it's more common than we think,,, I did see on one site that it mentions carrying a small Co2 extinguisher and firing it into the air intake as it starves it of air, and I think Gordon mentions it as well,,

 

Frank,,,,,