Low Sulphur Diesel

[MauriceMynah]

Just how many of these "runaway" incidents have there been? Reading this thread it seems to be hundreds!

As I said in an earlier post, I make biodiesel, and have been doing so for years. Bio has been added to "Dino diesel" for a numbered of years too!

Yes the cleaning effect of bio does leave some plastic components vulnerable, but anyone would think it would inevitably dissolve the entire engine reading this lot!

So, might I ask you to consider two things...

1. Is Bio or FAME mentioned in any of your insurance policies?

2. How many boats have actually suffered as a result of running with bio in the mix?

I am well used to the doom merchants telling me that I'm killing my cars engine by using bio, all amateur bio producers hear the same horror stories time and time again, sometimes even from reputable garages, each stemming from urban myth.

Give me some stats and I will re-evaluate my opinions but until that time, I'm happy with the stuff.

I'm sure that there are far greater dangers in boating such that any involving FAME need to be put firmly into perspective.

 

Honestly though, I do get the strong feeling from reading this thread that if there is so much as an egg spoon of the stuff in your boat tank it is only a matter of time before the tappets blast through the cockpit floor, braining you or the bottom end crashes through the hull, causing you to drown.

 

 

Cheer up.... It might never happen!  

[Guest]

Quite true JTF 

 

I have to admit that aside from the runaway incidents mentioned on the Internet, I've never heard of any personally, even as hearsay.

 

I guess the potentiall of suddenly hearing you're pride and joy's engine screaming like a banshee until it blew up spurs me on to see if there were any precautions that could be thought about in advance, other than just legging it....

[Paladin]

Just how many of these "runaway" incidents have there been? Reading this thread it seems to be hundreds!

As I said in an earlier post, I make biodiesel, and have been doing so for years. Bio has been added to "Dino diesel" for a numbered of years too!

Yes the cleaning effect of bio does leave some plastic components vulnerable, but anyone would think it would inevitably dissolve the entire engine reading this lot!

So, might I ask you to consider two things...

1. Is Bio or FAME mentioned in any of your insurance policies?

2. How many boats have actually suffered as a result of running with bio in the mix?

I am well used to the doom merchants telling me that I'm killing my cars engine by using bio, all amateur bio producers hear the same horror stories time and time again, sometimes even from reputable garages, each stemming from urban myth.

Give me some stats and I will re-evaluate my opinions but until that time, I'm happy with the stuff.

I'm sure that there are far greater dangers in boating such that any involving FAME need to be put firmly into perspective.

 

Honestly though, I do get the strong feeling from reading this thread that if there is so much as an egg spoon of the stuff in your boat tank it is only a matter of time before the tappets blast through the cockpit floor, braining you or the bottom end crashes through the hull, causing you to drown.

 

 

Cheer up.... It might never happen!  

 

JTF, my Google search, world-wide, for 'diesel engine runaway' returned 604,000 hits, not all of which would have actually been about the situation we've been discussing. Restricting the search to 'UK Only' returned 251 hits, some of which related to 'runaway costs' and such like. Diesel runaways were occurring before biodiesel was introduced and are just as (more?) likely to be caused by poor maintenance as anything else.

 

So you're perfectly right, IMO. This is not a common occurrence and I don't think anyone has said otherwise. But it is a possibility, and there has been what I consider to be a sensible discussion about what to do to minimise the risk, and what action might be taken if the situation arises.

 

I have never fallen off a boat, but I wear a life jacket. I've never experienced 'diesel bug', but I use Soltron. It is a fact that biodiesel can have an increased susceptibility to microbial growth, which can lead to blocked filters and fuel lines. My car has fan-type windscreen washer jets. My insurance company doesn't tell me what washer liquid to use, but I know that if I use bog-standard washer liquid, the fan jets will clog up.

 

This is a quote from a web site about the home production of bio-diesel: "Older vehicles used natural, Buta-N or nitrile rubber components in the fuel pump and in the fuel lines. These rubbers are biodiesel incompatible and will soften, harden or dissolve. As a general rule - any vehicle made prior to 1994 may have a problem with biodiesel but vehicles made after this should be fine. It is important to check your vehicles manual to see if the manufacturer specifies you can use biodiesel. If so, at what percentage. Failure to do so will invalidate your vehicle warranty and might lead to expensive repairs to your fuel system."

 

I haven't seen this as an anti-biofuel thread, but as a very useful discussion about the practicalities of dealing/coping with a runaway, should one occur, for whatever reason. Everyone will use whatever fuel they want to, but, as my boat engine is 30+ years old, and I have the choice, I prefer to use fuel without an ingredient that might, just might, cause me a problem.

[Mowjo]

So far we have had three runaways in our marina one resulting in a blown engine, Andy from Freedom boating says he replaced three  fuel pumps  one of them this year, Clive Richo says the problem occurred a couple of seasons ago with older seals in injector pumps not being keen on the new fuel, we were very busy swapping pumps on the old engines, new seals are not affected and neither are the new engines. Andy from Freedom boating also says,The additive was adjusted about 24 months ago in most fuel so it's taken some time to cause seal failures. Obviously, if the boats used more, the degradation is swifter.I have little doubt that we'll be overhauling the remainder of our fleet pumps in the next 12 months and many private owners will be faced with similar bills. check out other Marine sites and you will see the same problems, Check out car sites and it been happening for a few years, type in fuel pump failure with low sulphur diesel and you'll be surprised how common the problem is, In Cars there are hundreds of cases in boats it relatively new, from reading up on it, it mainly affects older engines before 2000, so that means it COULD happen to quite a few boats on the Broads, the whole reason for starting the thread was because it just happened to me, making four in our marina now and I'm facing a bill of something like £400 for repairs, where ever I've checked they are saying low sulphur diesel is the cause, so the whole Idea is to warn people about the problem, symtoms to look out for and tried and tested ways that might help prevent it happening, it's up to the individual if they ignore it or try to help prevent it, for me if my posting helps one person it's done it's job, I wouldn't feel very good if someone here said it happened to them, and I knew about the problem and said nothing, no-one has said your engine will blow up! but the fact is it could if you can't shut your engine down,,,

[mbird]

With regard to fuel additives, I have started using Marine 16 following the hideous task of having to clean out our fuel tanks. There was a report in MotorBoat Monthly last year, and I seem to remember the Marine 16 came out top (though I could be wrong on that), but if it's good enough for the RNLI, it's good enough for me!
 
They do two different products. One is Diesel Bug Treatment, which should be used to combat an active bug infection. The other is Diesel Fuel Complete, which stops bug developing and as the website states;
 
"For complete protection with biodiesels, ulsd and any diesel type. Prevents the growth of diesel bug. Combats all of the effects of using biodiesel and ultra low sulphur diesel. Gives lubricity, cleaner easier starting, reduces emissions, improves fuel consumption and reduces fuel line and injector deposits to zero. Suitable for all diesel engine types and all diesel fuels."
 
When I contacted Marine 16, they suggested I use a shock dose of the DBT and then regular doses of DFC at fuel fills, just to be belt and braces, even though I have no active bug infection.
 
The cheapest place I could find the Marine 16 products was the Sealine Owners Club shop http://sealineownersclub.org/shop/ and it was delivered the very next day after ordering! Please note that whilst I do own a Sealine, I am in no way connected with the Owners Club

[Paladin]

With regard to fuel additives, I have started using Marine 16...

 

They do two different products. One is Diesel Bug Treatment, which should be used to combat an active bug infection. The other is Diesel Fuel Complete, which stops bug developing and as the website states;

 

"For complete protection with biodiesels, ulsd and any diesel type. Prevents the growth of diesel bug. Combats all of the effects of using biodiesel and ultra low sulphur diesel. Gives lubricity, cleaner easier starting, reduces emissions, improves fuel consumption and reduces fuel line and injector deposits to zero. Suitable for all diesel engine types and all diesel fuels."

mbird, I cannot see anywhere that Marine 16 makes any claim to protect the seals and pipes in older engines from the degrading effects of using biodiesel, so the claim that it "combats all of the effects etc." is simply not true.

 

If you read their Fuel Treatment Guide, you'll see they only address the problems of diesel bug and fuel degradation.

[ExUserGone]

I've been reading through this thinking 'sod it I have old cav pumps, what is my plan' and finally remembered they are driven by belt so no fuel can get into the sump.....I'll just get a bilge full of diesel and a smell so I'll sit back and wait for the breakdown, toolkit can be spare beer in the fridge.

It's worth remembering that it doesn't matter what engine you have, it's what pump is fitted that matters and on most older engines it will be a lucas/cav/roto-diesel/delphi pump and they are all the same pump(different models but same technology), bosch may fare better as I believe they get on better with veg oil than cav do.

[Oddfellow]

It's probably way too late to try and prevent this if you've bought fuel in the last two years.

 

I've not seen a runaway caused by this problem but I have seen a runaway and suffocated it and lived to tell without injury (unlike when I lost a finger to a fan belt!).

 

Believe me, a runaway is proper scary.

[MauriceMynah]

Sorry everyone, I'm not trying to belittle any discussion that is aiming to reduce the risk of something nasty happening, but trying to put some perspective on this.

My point was that the way I read it, what started life as a thread about a "remote possibility" was turning that possibility into a lethal inevitability.

What became apparent was that regular oil checks would give the user sufficient information to warn about any problems.

At this point I would observe out that a frequency of those oil checks has not been recommended. So I have to ask ... Should those oil checks be after each hours cruising or perhaps after 10 engine hours or would it be every thousand hours? Sorry to sound flippant but you see my point!

Is it not then reasonable to say that if you regularly check your oil for both level and viscosity, and that no issues are detected by that check, you will not have this problem?

Just out of interest, lets say you normally use "Uncle Maurice Mynah's Marine Maintenance" (Ummmm!)

who are based next to Geldeston Lock, and you are moored at Coltishall lock. You discover that your oil level has increased slightly and it smells of diesel. Would it be safe to do an oil change and then cruise that rather long distance, or would that lead to a runaway engine before you reached Belaugh?

Just how urgent are we talking about here?

Those who know me will recognise my habit of exaggerating issues by way of illustration, Those who don't know me... "Hi"!

[Gordon]

Oh I believe you. Those old Perkies and BMCs are noisy and rattly enough. I just cannot imagine the terror of watching and hearing one trying to rotate at 5 or 6k. I think some of those with theories on stopping one might have second thoughts when confronted by the beast. Me? I would be a as far away as possible.

[Gordon]

On the subject of road vehicles I have a Mazda 6 it is the first car that I have ever had where the oil on the dipstick goes up not down. There is an X on the dipstick above the max point where you should change the oil. This is something to do with short journeys and injecting oil to burn the deposits out of the DPF. And it does go up to that mark. Bearing in mind some people never have their vehicles serviced and rarely check the oil why do we not see more problems. With regard the post 2000 business the last vehicle I heard of running away was a 54 plate Ford Explorer regularly serviced. This was probably due to an issue with the turbo rather than the injector pump

[Paladin]

JTF, here’s my perspective, FWIW:

 

Runaways

 

1. Diesel runaways occur.

2. Diesel runaways occur very rarely, when compared to the millions and millions of miles driven by diesel-powered cars and boats each year. They are clearly not inevitable, and are, probably,  not even very likely.

3. Diesel runaways most often result from mechanical defect and/or poor maintenance.

4. Runaways occurred before biodiesel was ever introduced.

 

Biodiesel

 

Biodiesel, which is largely made up of fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) is a solvent, which will attack and damage nitrile rubber. Fuel lines and seals in pre-mid-90s engines were usually made of nitrile rubber. When the introduction of low-sulphur diesel was discussed in the mid-90s (prior to its introduction in 2000), engine manufacturers changed the specifications of fuel pipes etc., and the new material that was put into use was, coincidentally, compatible with biodiesel.

 

The fuel lines and seals in my 1980s engine are, therefore, at some risk of damage, if I use diesel with added FAME. The extent of that risk is not known, but science proves the risk is there. Whether or not a runaway would result is a totally different question.

 

Oil checks

 

My motoring life began in cars from the 1930s, which had precious little in the way of dashboard instrumentation. An tray was always left under the engines, to catch the oil drips. A daily check of oil and water levels was a necessity.

 

It’s a habit I still have, with the boat, anyway. I always check the levels before the first start of the day. I go even further – having started the engine, I check the engine bay to make sure I haven’t got any visible leaks (this, after a fuel return hose split and warm diesel was being sprayed out. It didn’t show up when the engine wasn’t running). Am I paranoid? You bet I am.

 

Regarding your hypothetical situation, because of my paranoia, I know exactly where my oil level should be. If it went down substantially or up slightly, I would suspect a problem and would seek professional advice at the earliest opportunity, even if that meant calling a mechanic out to the mooring. Cheaper than buying a new engine (usually).

[Paladin]

 

It’s a habit I still have, with the boat, anyway. I always check the levels before the first start of the day. I go even further – having started the engine, I check the engine bay to make sure I haven’t got any visible leaks (this, after a fuel return hose split and warm diesel was being sprayed out. It didn’t show up when the engine wasn’t running). Am I paranoid? You bet I am.

OMG, I've just had a terrible thought. If that split had directed a fine spray of warm diesel towards the air intake, it could have provided the engine with an unregulated supply of fuel and I could have had a runaway. AAAAARRRGGGHHHHH.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mbird]

mbird, I cannot see anywhere that Marine 16 makes any claim to protect the seals and pipes in older engines from the degrading effects of using biodiesel, so the claim that it "combats all of the effects etc." is simply not true.

 

If you read their Fuel Treatment Guide, you'll see they only address the problems of diesel bug and fuel degradation.

Does that mean they are flouting the trade descriptions act in that case? I've only just started using it, so too early to tell if it makes any difference. but like I say, if it's good enough for the RNLI......etc etc

[Paladin]

mbird, I can't comment on the effects of Marine 16. I've never used it, just read test reports. Their web site says "There are two routes to fuel problems; diesel bug and fuel degradation." However, as the detrimental effect of biodiesel on nitrile rubber is  a  scientific fact and Marine 16 does not address that issue at all, their advertising is incorrect. Probably they don't think there are any old engines still running

[Mowjo]

JTF! Palidine is right runaways have been going on even before the new low sulphur fuel, and even with it I think a lot of the problems are down to lack of maintenance or just plain old engines getting a bit worn out, if the seals do leak on your pump it put diesel into the sump and dilutes the oil, so if your piston rings are a bit worn as they probably are on most of our old BMC's and stuff it follows that the diluted oil/diesel will have an easier path to the combustion chambers, from research if you can call it that the new low sulphur fuel accelerates the degradation of some types of rubber like the ones used in older fuel pumps and turbo's, the lack of sulphur they say shrinks the seals and I presume the extra bit of slack makes them wear a bit quicker leading to leaks, the old style diesel with the sulphur in actually expands the seals keeping them leak tight, as for will it or won't you get a leak I don't think anyone can answer it, in my case there was no warning, I'd checked the oil before starting the boat, just pure oil, took the boat round to our pump out no more than 1/4 mile and all hell broke loose with the engine, and for those that mentioned it, it was a change of underpants job, engine going at full revs, shut throttle off, NOTHING, pull out stop lever, NOTHING, now panic sets in Judi runs and hides in the back of the boat, I go into Spike Milligan Mode, "what am I gonna do now, I lift the engine cover in the front cabin check throttle cable in case it's stuck/broke all ok, luckily it stopped by itself I presume it used up the contents of the sump, the mechanic that took the pump out did say it's the worst leak he has ever seen, which surprised him and me as there were no warning sign whatever that it was leaking, it seems the seal had more or less disintegrated, so JTF's question would an oil change make a longish distance? how long is a piece of string? if it's only a slight leak you might make it, but after how quick mine went, I personally wouldn't risk it and get a tow back, Oil Changes! I've always checked mine in the marina before starting out then when out I check it every day before setting off, so I'm pretty anal about checking my oil and it still bit me in the bum, so it can happen to any of us at any time, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it happening, at least here we are aware of the potential problem and things we can do to help prevent it happening and if your brave enough to block the air intake, just from this thread alone if you read comments made by some of the Pro's it's becoming clear that's it's getting more common  now and something we should keep an eye out for,,,

 

Frank,,,,

[Paladin]

Just when I thought it was safe to go back on the water…

Following on from earlier posts, I emailed Marine 16 as follows:

“The text accompanying your advertisement on your web site for Diesel Fuel Complete says: "For complete protection with biodiesels, ulsd and any diesel type. Prevents the growth of diesel bug. Combats all of the effects of using biodiesel and ultra low sulphur diesel."

I have a 1984 diesel engine in my boat, which still has nitrile rubber fuel lines and seals. Biodiesel is a solvent, which is known to attack nitrile rubber. Is there any Marine 16 product which will protect against this detrimental effect of using biodiesel in my boat?”

I have just received this reply, from the owner, David White (please note, I hadn't mentioned copper):

“DFC will slow the effects of FAME in the bio-diesel but it is not a cure for nitrile seals or copper corrosion in the long term. If anyone tries to sell you something that they say will work do not believe them. Engine failure is not a trivial subject.

The manufacturer of the pump should be able to advise you on where to get the correct seals. You should change them. If you have copper fuel lines the FAME strips out copper ions. These should be changed to the modern flexible types before cracking occurs.“

Now, the BSS says:

“Fuel pipes must be made of suitable materials.

Suitable materials include:
aluminium alloy;
copper;
mild steel (for diesel only);
stainless steel.”

If biodiesel damages copper, is the BSS missing something here?
 

[Mowjo]

Being so nice to you all I found this PBO report on Diesel bug treatment, took me weeks to find it, I didn't know it could all be so confusing but Grotamar 82 Marine 16 and Soltron  came out well, Looking like Soltron being best if you use your boat a lot, anyway have a read and you can make up your own minds what's best for you and we can fight afterwards,, Personaly I'm torn between Soltron because I use my boat a lot, and Grotamar 82  anyway here's the link to the article,,


http://content.yudu.com/A1tjuq/PBOMayarticle/resources/7.htm

 

 

 

Oh! and thanks Paladine, now I have something else to worry about, I'm sure there are copper parts in my fuel lines,,

[Paladin]

Think nothing of it, Mowjo. My pleasure!

 

I've emailed BSS for their advice and I'll post their response, in due course.

[mbird]

Interesting response from Marine 16! They appear to be contradicting their own claims....

 

My engines are a pair of 1992 Volvo Penta KAMD42's. So far, I don't think I've come across any reports of pump failure on them, so I'd best keep my fingers crossed.

[Oddfellow]

As for frequency of checks, if you were to hire one of our boats, we insist that you carry out daily checks on the oil, coolant in header tank and weed filters.

[Mowjo]

MBird! I think certain fuel pumps are more prone to it than others, so it can depend on what you have on yours, I did read an article about it but I can't find it anywhere, but I did find this snippet,,,

The seals in question are fuel injection and throttle-shaft O-rings and gaskets made with a rubber compound. Some of these seals are reportedly failing after as little as 3 weeks exposure to the new low sulphur diesel fuel. Engines with rotary injector pumps use diesel for lubrication, as contrasted with in-line pumps which use crankcase oil. As a result, engines with rotary pumps are, at this time, the hardest hit.

Frank,,,

[MauriceMynah]

Frank, What I don't understand is this...What is the route the diesel fuel takes to get into the sump from the injector pump?

However, in your last post you said that inline pumps use crankcase oil. Surely where crankcase oil is lubricating the fuel pump, that gives a route if a seal goes.

If a fuel pump is lubricated by it's own fuel, there is no route for that fuel to get into the crankcase... is there?

Does that not make the in-line pump the harder hit over the rotary pump?

How will the average boater (or in my case "the below average") know what pump he's got?

[Mowjo]

Sorry JTF the last part of my post was a copy and paste, I have no idea about the Pumps, but as far as I can work out it doesn't really affect inline pumps as they are using as they use the crankcase oil, and oil expands the seals so less likely to leak, the rotary pump used to rely on the sulphur in the diesel to lubricate the seals, now it has gone low sulphur they have effectively removed most of the sulphur, and this causes the seals to shrink and the pump more likely to leak, to be honest I have no idea how it pumps diesel into the sump but trust me it does, maybe Andy or Mark can tell you more on that,,,

 

Frank,,,,

[Mowjo]

Forgot to mention I think most of the older engines have rotary pumps, like BMC, Thornycroft,