Vaughan

That is a shame, as when we were there in 2017 we were made very welcome to moor overnight and had a great evening, which Old Wussername may (or may not) remember! At that time it was new management and a very welcome change of policy. It seems management has now changed and policy has also reverted. A great pity, for what was once one of the most popular riverside pubs on the Broads.

It's all coming back now! I remember that Blakes, even though it was owned by its members, could not hold security deposits, so the choice of deposit or waiver was always an "option on arrival" at the boatyard. Many here would like to see an all inclusive price but maybe they can also see why "extras on arrival" is actually the fairest way of doing business. By the way, the last time I hired a car from Enterprise, on the phone, I was offered the option of a damage waiver or deposit. Enterprise were the only major hirer (including Europcar!) that would hire me a car in England on a French driving licence. That was well before Brexit, and Enterprise now always have my business, even in France. And I always choose the deposit option!

I have only just "liked" Andy's post as I have only just got the point! I made a direct booking with Richardsons, so I demanded the deposit option from them. Hoseasons, as a travel agent, cannot legally hold a security deposit, so they are just insisting on the waiver. And maybe charging sales commission on it? Meantime the customer has no choice and that is illegal.

Hello John, I think this is the sort of thing I was saying earlier about making a good impression on the customer, and I am sure most yards would not do that. If the last thing you remember about your Broads holiday, is being stung for twenty quid for a mark on the hull, you are not going to come and book again for next year!

It's a long time, since my father and I used to wait for the tide, in what was then the Thorpe Gardens. I don't seem to remember that it made any difference, whether the tide was high or low!

Yes it is mis-leading but it is still not an invoice. It is a guide price for your holiday, taken off a website. When you make the booking, you can opt to remove the waver and pay a deposit. I know that is true, folks! I have done it myself, on a Richardson's holiday. I admit that the very nice lady on the phone had to go and ask a supervisor, to find out how to do it!

All good stuff, but the fact remains that a high resistance in a circuit will cause a fire without blowing a fuse, but that does not happen with a trip. I don't need to be John Ambrose Fleming to have noticed that before. I was simply pointing out what had gone wrong on BA as I have seen it so many times before.

And hence why I say it is potentially dodgy! I must say I didn't realise that this had got to the point where customers now believe that they have to pay the waiver, so they would rather see it included. As I said earlier, if this ever got to a court case, I wouldn't like to predict the outcome.

I think perhaps, reading your other posts, you may not have realised that it is the yard that insures the boat - not you. That of course, is included in the hire price! Like all insurance, it has an excess, for which you are responsible. The security deposit - refundable - is designed to cover the excess if you do damage up to that amount. If you do more damage than that, you are covered by the yard's insurance. The damage waiver is designed to indemnify you from having to pay the excess, but it is not refundable. So it risks being considered as a private insurance of its own, if not marketed carefully.

Hear, hear!

There is another aspect to this : insurance companies work because the premium paid by all customers covers the claims made by just a few of them. Hence the no-claim bonus. If only a few people paid the damage waiver it would not cover the yards repair costs, so they have to encourage the most possible, to pay it or it won't work. This is undoubtedly why their marketing has come to make it seem as though you have to pay it. Insurance companies however, are heavily regulated by their profession, to ensure that premiums are set at a level which does not make excessive profits. I think you can guess what's coming next! Boatyards leave themselves open to the accusation of making excess profit from un-regulated, illegal insurance. This happened in the early days of the waiver, when I was on the board of Blakes and again years later, when I was on the board of Crown Blue Line in France. On both occasions we were faced with government intervention, but were able to defend ourselves because it was an option, and not lumped in as part of the hire price. I repeat that charging a damage waiver is potentially dodgy, and so is an "all inclusive" package. If you like the idea and are happy to pay these, that is your customer choice and preference but unless they have changed the rules since I retired, you cannot be obliged to do so. Remember all the legal fuss a few years ago about "mis-sold P.P.I"? It's the same thing.

Does that mean the pub was not open? Sorry, I have just read Andy's first post! I assume you got a drink though?

We had an oil analysis on all of Crown Blue Line's boats in France one year. The results were totally bizarre and we never had it done again! Perhaps the best way to tell is to listen to the engine, especially when accelerating and look at any smoke coming from the exhaust. White smoke is un-burned diesel; blue smoke is burning oil (lack of compression) and black smoke is probably not very good news. If it is difficult to start that is also a clue, but that may just be the pre-heat glow plugs.

Hoseasons are a travel agent, so they don't hold a security deposit. That is up to the boatyard and I notice you have quoted the conditions for a holiday cottage. To try and make the damage waiver obligatory would be illegal. I am not going to argue the toss over this one : I think I have explained it as clearly as I can. In my experience in France, by no means all customers pay the waiver - about 2/3 I would think - and only about 1/3 choose the all inclusive package. In France this includes security, fuel, car parking, 2 free hire bicycles and on some boats, a priority early boarding.

Not particularly, to be honest - although they must have given great pleasure to those who had holidays on them in those days, when there were literally hundreds of boats of that type, all over the Broads. By their nature, they were not "built to last" and few if any have survived. Jenny Morgan is not on the forum these days but I have had a good look at his photo above and can't see anything that resembles these boats. At bottom left is a D class Fairmile MTB and further over, what looks like a Fairmile C class ML or maybe a Camper Nicholson MGB. Further over is an ex air/sea rescue launch and a Vosper 73ft MTB which was called Foynes. All of these were used as houseboats in the 50s and 60s. Over to the left top there are many boatyards such as A.D.Truman, Topcraft, Harry Collins, Leo Robinson, Ivan Darby (at the Commodore, which he also owned) and several more, all now gone I am afraid. Over to the right centre is Knights Creek.

I have to say that this is a good example of how a high resistance in a circuit, such as a faulty pump, can cause a fire in a circuit without blowing a fuse. Fuses blow on a surge in amps, but a voltage trip will cut out when it senses the volt drop from a high resistance.

I am afraid I can't agree, there. You can avoid it and I did so myself, on a holiday I booked with Richardsons a short while ago. I elected to pay a security deposit when making the booking. They refunded my deposit in cash, which was awkward as I was going back to France the next morning! They said there was no-one on the yard from management who had the authority to write me a cheque. That, on a Saturday morning in the high season, is an interesting thought in itself. The key to this is that word discretionary. The damage waiver is still the customer's choice. If not, it would be illegal "insurance" which the boatyard cannot offer, as it is not a registered insurance company. It's all very simple really. Most damage to hire boats is minor. Fender eyes pulled out, bent rubbing strakes, etc. Even for more serious damage, the yard will very rarely make an insurance claim, as they do their own repairs with their own staff, so all it costs is materials. Even a serious GRP repair is quite cheap in materials - it is mainly labour hours. It is very difficult to charge customers for minor damage at the end of a holiday (see my previous post) as they will dispute the price and it causes bad feeling. So someone had the idea of offering a damage waiver. Pay your 30 quid (or whatever) and we will indemnify you from the liability of the excess on our insurance, or else pay a deposit of 200 quid (or whatever) to cover the excess. The waiver paid goes into a fund which should pay for the yard's minor damage over the season. Does this fund make a profit? Yes, normally, but nothing extraordinary. You are taking a risk on the amount of damage that might get done, which is what "real" insurance is all about. It is a risk business. Meantime, a third party claim (another boat hit you) is fully covered by the yard's insurance and you are not responsible for any excess, although you may be asked to fill in an accident report form. Just like a hire car. I don't think we should get too concerned about this. No-one is being fiddled - but the fact remains it is not legal insurance. It is an offer made under the yard's individual conditions of hire and as such, it is entirely the customer's choice. If you don't want to take the offer, you don't have to. But you do then take the risk of damage, up to the amount of the security deposit. The exclusion of wilful damage is an obvious precaution on the yard's part but that is a matter of the conditions of hire in the contract that you have signed, as the charterer.

As I suggested : sailing close to the wind.

I agree, but if he has worked it out, then choose to pay a fuel deposit instead. If this sort of thing ever came to court, I would not like to predict the outcome. Let's say, they are sailing close to the wind! In principle, if you charge a damage waiver then you are setting yourself up as an insurance company, which you are not, in law. The "get out clause", if you like, is that it is still your free choice. If you don't want to pay it, you don't have to.

In the Navy there is a term "hooked on" when you bring a boat alongside and can hold it against the ship's side with the boathook while you sort out the moorings. It is also great for pushing the bow out (with the other end) when leaving a mooring. You will soon find out how useful it is if you ever have to catch hold of someone who has just fallen in, by their clothing or lifejacket, so that you can stabilise them while efforts are made to get them out again.

And don't let's think that never happens! Let's stand back for a moment, and look at this from a different perspective. If a yard are seriously charging their valued clients for burst plastic fenders, then they don't know a lot about marketing! When you come to see us in France for a week, on a luxury cruiser costing over €3000 in high season, we only get to "meet" you twice. About an hour when you arrive and maybe 10 minutes when you leave. In that short time we have to somehow impress you with our welcome and personal service, so that you will want to come back again next year. The hire boat business is all about regular customers. If you get in your car to drive away with your family, after paying that money, and say "Cor, that miserable ******* in the office just charged me seven Quid for a fender", then you are not going to think about coming back next year! If however, you drive away with happy thoughts about your holiday and our friendly service, and decide to book a boat again for next year, then that will pay for all of the fenders that we have burst on all of the boats for the whole season! About five times over! Marketing is not rocket science. It is based mostly on simple human nature.

But not if you have paid the damage waiver.

I believe they are. This is a customer's choice as some people prefer to know in advance exactly how much it is going to cost. Remember that you don't have to accept this option : you have the right to pay a fuel deposit and also the right to leave a security deposit instead of the damage waiver. You have to risk the excess if you do minor damage on your car and it is the same for a boat. You are still only liable up to the amount of the deposit. The rest is on the boat's insurance. With a damage waiver you are, in effect, insuring against the excess.

Again, Andy is quite right, especially as he looks at it from the customer's point of view. If it is fitted, then it has to WORK. Otherwise it gets complaints. Often, the problem is actually getting access to the top of the tank to change the float switch. Why not take the dial out of the dashboard and fit an hour meter instead? Much more useful!

My natural loyalty prevented me from saying that but Andy is quite right, in some cases. Some standards do appear to be higher than others, which is a pity for them, as regular customers often move elsewhere.