Low Sulphur Diesel

[Mowjo]

OK! spoken to Clive Richo and he said their fuel is plain old Red diesel, so far it seems the ones listed below are FAME free,

Richardsons,
Moonfleet,
Boulter's,


Frank,,,,,

[Oddfellow]

That's fine for anyone with an old BMC Andy, but the impression I got after following this thread and it's links is that it can affect almost any Diesel engine, fitted in boats or cars.

 

When I Googled "runaway" and "VW", it sounds as though it can even  potentially happen to my 15 year old VW  Camper engine.

 

The problem is prevalent in older fuel pumps typical on BMCs and Perkins which make up the majority of older engines on the Broads.

 

I can't comment on road vehicles as I don't know about the FAME content in white diesel, nor am I particularly knowledgeable about the pump seals on older Nanni or other Japanese derrived engines.

 

Any engine can run away - it's a process whereby oil from the sump gets past the piston rings into the combustion chamber and the engine burns its lubricant as fuel as well as the real fuel. So, it can happen in a cracked block for instance or in a very worn engine. It's not just leaky pump seals that might cause this, but we know that injector pumps on BMCs particularly, are highly prone to it.

 

For any owners of other engines, speak to their manufacturers for advice or drop me a line and I may be able to find out for you.

[littlesprite]

Would having a simple butterfly valve fitted in the air line not work? I think that's the right description for them, a flat disc that pivots on a spindle.

[Paladin]

Would having a simple butterfly valve fitted in the air line not work? I think that's the right description for them, a flat disc that pivots on a spindle.

littlesprite, the simple answer is 'Yes'. If you click on the link I provided in post #45, you'll see a variety of installations on that principle, from manual to fully automatic. But I haven't found anything along those lines yet that would be affordable.

[littlesprite]

Sorry  Paladin I had looked at your link but clearly didn't recognise those over engineered things as a simple metal disc, no wonder I never went into engineering.

[Happy]

Freedon Boating Hols.  You mention 'old BMC engines',  I assume this also applies to the two Thornycroft engines fitted in my Seamaster 30? Regards Alan   

[Guest]

The problem is prevalent in older fuel pumps typical on BMCs and Perkins which make up the majority of older engines on the Broads.

 

I can't comment on road vehicles as I don't know about the FAME content in white diesel, nor am I particularly knowledgeable about the pump seals on older Nanni or other Japanese derrived engines.

 

Any engine can run away - it's a process whereby oil from the sump gets past the piston rings into the combustion chamber and the engine burns its lubricant as fuel as well as the real fuel. So, it can happen in a cracked block for instance or in a very worn engine. It's not just leaky pump seals that might cause this, but we know that injector pumps on BMCs particularly, are highly prone to it.

 

For any owners of other engines, speak to their manufacturers for advice or drop me a line and I may be able to find out for you.

 

 

The problem appears to be possible on a wide range of diesel engines, whether fitted in boats or cars.

 

After this thread appeared, I researched the subject on the web, which is what prompted my interest and concern on the possibility of it happening to my old VW camper, and exploring the possible ways of minimising the risk of damage, by being prepared in advance if possible.

 

There are many more ways that Diesel runaway can occur than just the pump seals and piston ring leakage. Turbos  have oil seals too, and a far greater suction potential.

 

Apparently low sulphur diesel is becoming a problem with road fuel and older engines, degrading oil seals and giving less lubrication.

[Paladin]

Apparently low sulphur diesel is becoming a problem with road fuel and older engines, degrading oil seals and giving less lubrication.

Strowie, I think you might be conflating two separate issues here. Lowering the sulphur content does indeed lower the lubricity of the fuel, which, according to much I have read, can be overcome by adding 2T oil, as previously discussed. The degradation (I've also heard it described at dissolving) of the oil seals and pipes made of older material is caused by the biodiesel which is added to the fuel to put back some of the lubricity lost by the lowering of the sulphur content. Fuel without ANY biodiesel added (FAME-free) is available as reported above, and that is what I will continue to use + 2T oil, so (touching wood as I type this), I don't expect to have any problem in this area.

 

BUT, just in case, when I go to the boat on Friday, I'm going to experiment with closing off the air intake to the filter housing, just to see if doing that will stop the engine.

[Oddfellow]

Freedon Boating Hols.  You mention 'old BMC engines',  I assume this also applies to the two Thornycroft engines fitted in my Seamaster 30? Regards Alan   

Thornicroft, Leyland, BMC - all basically the same engines from that era (in various cc).

[Mowjo]

I'm doing a Paladin even though I will have the new seals on my pump when it comes back, I'll be adding two stroke to the diesel and Soltrol in case I get the diesel buggers, I've had a look at some of these air shut off valves and from what I see it's cheaper to have your pump out and overhauled, that is a cure for the over-run, can we prevent it happening??? the general view is yes! by adding 2 stroke to your fuel, I've been reading stuff that goes back ten years on Car, Boat, Tractor and many other forums and the majority swear by it, but if your seals are worn it can still happen even with 2 stroke because fuel will still enter the sump and dilute to oil to fuel, so we know 2 stoke is an aid not a cure, we also know how to shut the engine down by blocking the air filter, and Professor Paladin is on that case, I still think the hard rubber ball on a rope kept in the engine bay is the way to go as it's round and the air intake will suck it in tight shutting the air off, but now I have a but!!! we have an air filter on our engines and trust me if your engine goes the last thing you will want to do is mess about taking the filter off, because the chances are it's held on with a jubilee clip, and that means finding a screw driver, taking it off and having something to hand to block the intake and by that time if your unlucky your engine would have gone bang and there's a real chance you could be hurt as well, so plan B! something to go around the air filter while it's still in place, my filter is the chrome and mesh type so I just need something a couple of inches wide that is flexible, fairly air tight, and quick, maybe be a slice of old rubber innertube cut a couple of inches wide making a big wide rubber band you could just slip over the filter,you could just hang it in the engine bay in case of emergency,,

 

Frank,,

[Gordon]

I somehow cannot imagine laying on the floor reaching into the engine bay trying to suffocate a shaking rattling noisy beast that is racing away at a terrifying speed

[Paladin]

I somehow cannot imagine laying on the floor reaching into the engine bay trying to suffocate a shaking rattling noisy beast that is racing away at a terrifying speed

But isn't it better to be aware of this, or any other, problem which might arise when we're afloat, so that each individual can assess their own situation and have some sort of action plan, even if it's simply getting to the shore and legging it.

 

Prevention is always better than cure, but it's also of benefit to know what cure might be available, should it become necessary.

 

I've even read that, if circumstances allow, putting the engine into gear, so placing a load on it, can slow the revs to a less than destructive rate and the engine will stop when the fuel supply from the crankcase drops to a level such that it is no longer being drawn past the pistons.

[Oddfellow]

Putting a racing marine engine in gear is hardly ideal. What will you propel your boat into whist attempting to stop the engine? 

[Paladin]

Putting a racing marine engine in gear is hardly ideal. What will you propel your boat into whist attempting to stop the engine? 

Please read what I wrote, which was "I've even read that, if circumstances allow..."

 

There appear to be only two options available.

 

1. Let the engine race away and either disintegrate, or run out of fuel from the crankcase, both of which are reported to have happened.

 

2. Try to stop the engine, and various methods have been discussed.

 

Either option comes with its own dangers to life and limb, and each circumstance must be judged individually, in the extremely unlikely event of a runaway occurring.

[Mowjo]

Andy and Paladin! your both right! because we know it can happen with older car and marine engines and it's something we should be aware of if we drive an older car or have an older marine engine, as I said from checking it mainly seems to affect diesel engines built before 2000, this isn't fact but from checking most cases with cars running on seem to be the turbo engines and with marine engines it seems to be older engines, engines running on to destruction also seems very rare, again we should be aware it could happen and I presume there are other factors that contribute to this happening like lack of maintenance, wore rings, how much fuel the pump actually pumps into the sump, many things, but as I said it seems very rare for the engine to blow, the good thing is now we are aware of how to shut off a car or marine engine, one fact I do know from my own experience is when it happens it's very scary, and in the end if it does happen each one of us has to decide how brave we are, as stated I have easy access to my engine so if I had known could have easily blocked my air filter off within a minute, if I had a boat where you have to lift floors to get to the engine and actually lean over the engine to block the filter off, I'm not sure I would risk it because of the time and danger involved, I think now knowing of the problem I would make a small access hatch over the air filter, that way at least the rest of the floor would give me some protection and easy access to block the air flow off, at least we know the symptoms to look for via the dipstick, so it may be worth dipping the sump every time we moor up,

 

Frank,,, 

[Happy]

The two engines on My Panache don't burn any oil during the season and between oil changes and I must admit I don't check the levels very often-UNTIL NOW THAT IS!  It will now become a regular routine.  Thanks for the info!!  Regards Alan   

[Oddfellow]

Please read what I wrote, which was "I've even read that, if circumstances allow..."

 

[snip]

 

Either option comes with its own dangers to life and limb, and each circumstance must be judged individually, in the extremely unlikely event of a runaway occurring.

 

Sorry, Paladin, I missed that bit.

 

I don't want anybody to be under the impression that it *might* be OK to put the boat in gear with a racing engine. I can't imagine a situation where doing this would be at all safe and I'm not sure it's all that unlikely either.

 

When would circumstances allow? Perhaps if you're tied up, but what if a rope snapped under the force or, worse, a cleat or something gave with the resulting spring throwing a chunk of metal into the air at great speed? Sure, it may be an unfortunate chain of events for these things to all happen, but as we all know, that's how some of the most tragic events occur with one unlikely event causing a chain of unlikley events.

 

However, I feel sure that less likely to all those reading this thread.

[littlesprite]

I'm quite surprised that members of the dark arts haven't suggested the one way to guarantee it never happens!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get a sail. :naughty:

[Paladin]

Sorry, Paladin, I missed that bit.

 

I don't want anybody to be under the impression that it *might* be OK to put the boat in gear with a racing engine. I can't imagine a situation where doing this would be at all safe and I'm not sure it's all that unlikely either.

 

When would circumstances allow? Perhaps if you're tied up, but what if a rope snapped under the force or, worse, a cleat or something gave with the resulting spring throwing a chunk of metal into the air at great speed? Sure, it may be an unfortunate chain of events for these things to all happen, but as we all know, that's how some of the most tragic events occur with one unlikely event causing a chain of unlikley events.

 

However, I feel sure that less likely to all those reading this thread.

I'm trying to be very positive about this and have been thinking through what I might consider doing, if the need arose. It might be possible to put the bows into a reed bed, go hard astern against a firmer type of bank, or, if there was sufficient room, put the helm hard over. My boat will circle in just about its own length when I do the latter, so on a wide stretch of river, or on a broad, that could be a possibility.

 

"By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail." (Benjamin Franklin)

[Mowjo]

Or! you could just put it in neutral,  for some reason it was the first thing I did when the revs went mad, I had boats and pontoons on three sides of me in a pretty small space and only managed a slight drift bump to one boat! As the increase in revs is instant, my advice would be slam it in neutral, which I think most would probably do instinctively, the only reason you would pick up speed is if you left it in gear,,,

 

Frank,,,,  

 

 

Apologies Folks, I miss read the above post, and didn't realise you were talking about trying to stall the engine,,  would you actually be able to get it in gear with the engine going at full revs??  having never tried it I have no Idea but I think you may do some serious damage if you tried, so over to the experts on that one,,, 

[Paladin]

Mowjo, once again, it comes down to horses for courses. Bear in mind we're talking mainly about older boats. Those with a gear box and clutch, where you have to let the revs die down before shifting from forward to reverse, and vice versa, I would say probably not. I've got hydraulic drive and can go from forward to reverse drive without bothering what the revs are doing, so unless someone is going to say it would wreck the hydraulics, I would think I could do it, as the drive acts as a sort of 'sponge' anyway, soaking up some of the power transmission. Having the drive in gear wouldn't stall the engine, but, as I've said, it might keep the revs down to an non-destructive level for long enough to be able to cut off the air supply, or for it to run out of fuel..

 

Edited to add - these are my own musing only, and my opinions are base on my own logic and reasoning, not on any mechanical expertise, so I cannot be held responsible any actions anyone else might take

[Mowjo]

I know what you mean Paladin and perhaps one of our experts will comment on it, I didn't consider hydraulic boxes, but when it goes, the engine goes to full revs mine was over the 6000 limit and off the clock, so it would be interesting to see if a hydraulic box could deal with it,,,

 

Frank,,,,,,

[Oddfellow]

The average modern PRM hydraullic box fitted to most Broads craft is not rated for any more than about 5000 revs intermittent.

 

The older boxes are capable of lower speeds.

[Hockham Admiral]

OK! spoken to Clive Richo and he said their fuel is plain old Red diesel, so far it seems the ones listed below are FAME free,

Richardsons,

Moonfleet,

Boulter's,

Frank,,,,,

 

This is really good, Frank. I'll check at everywhere I stop for fuel this year and add to the list!  :clap

 

In fact I think I'll start a new thread on this single subject (FAME-free red diesel) if that's OK with you? (and at the same time put in prices).

[Gordon]

Can we clarify this please for a simple thicky like me. As far as I was aware there were two issues bothering us boaters. One was the lowering of the pump lubrication due to low sulphur content. The second issue is the adding of bio diesel which I thought was the cause of the black gunge. Blocked filters etc virus bug or whatever you like to call it. So what is this FAME free stuff And if it's no bio is it fact good for less diesel bug rather than the pump problem. Have we got two issues mixed up here?