The Salty Bottom Inaugural Rendevous

[mbird]

I agree with Ian, amongst others. A sea trial on the Yare might show you absolute top speed but it won't necessarily be a guide to handling in sea conditions which can obviously be extremely variable and more difficult conditions will likely sap a lot of the power. But I seriously doubt that any local brokers will actually allow you to take the boat to sea or even to Breydon for a more thorough test, not unless you were packing a 6 figure budget anyway.

Perry suggested I might have something to add on the subject of SD hulls and he's right that I spent a lot of time looking at what's available but I am afraid several years worth of research on broker's sites, visiting boats and asking for advice on models to look at basically always looking at the same two marques - Princess and Fairline and even then only at a handful of models. Obviously there were many, many other makes and models considered but none making the final cut for a variety of reasons. I really liked the P33 and, had we had kids to consider, that's probably the route we would have gone down but we didn't need the extra size.

Hi Simon

We're basically stuck between P33 or Sealine 310 Statesman with regard to the sort of accomodation we need/want. The P33 really baffles me though, going back to the hull type, as everyone calls them planing hulls. They do have planing type dimensions (shallow V at stern, hard chines, etc) but then also a keel the same depth at my bath-tub! I get the impression its probably more akin to a SD hull, but with planing attributes. The Sealine is much easier to pigeon-hole of course, and has the benfir of two separate cabins that can be left made up as beds, but probably at the expense of a slightly rougher ride.

Then again there is a Fairline Targa 33 we might just look at Oh god, make it stop

[thirdmate]

Mark,

You are not alone in your confusion. A number of ads for P33 MK1 state SD. But.... a number also state planing.

My view is that they are SD (or close enough not to matter)

Andy

Still looking

[thirdmate]

Mark

Not sure if you have been here http://www.princessownersclub.com/index.html

Loads of info

Andy

[pks1702]

you are not alone in your confusion. A number of ads for P33 MK1 state SD. But.... a number also state planing.

My view is that they are SD (or close enough not to matter)

I would certainly concur with that Andy.

Many designers have slightly tweaked the Classic SD hull maybe altering the dead rise to give a bit more 'planing' ability etc so there are definitely slight variations on the theme to cause confusion.

On our 'ship' the designers added a hull extension in effect a wing which gives her a bit more front end lift if required.

[Guest]

The more I hear about it Mark the more I think the P33 sounds like a very similar hull to the two Fairlines I mentioned - and one of those I own myself. They definitely have a "climb out" like a planing hull but they climb out more easily and at a lower speed - 12-13kts is easily sustained whilst staying up. A full planing hull will be more like 16-17kts. That opens up a few more options in a lumpy sea. I also recall seeing numerous complaints from full planing hull owners of them wandering around when at river speeds. I've found the Mirage very stable and dependable hear, you often don't need to touch the helm for time measurable in minutes (it would be seconds from the full planing boats). Remember this hull type has a 3/4 length keel which aids that stability.

Ref stuck between the two designs, well you're on your own there I'm afraid. My appraisal would be as follows:

Accommodation - the 33 is larger and more roomy (so I believe) but the 310 has the extra cabin.

On the river - the 33 will handle better as the keel will provide stability the 310 lacks with its planing hull. The 310 has a wide bathing platform and transom door with very easy stern on access whereas the 33 has a high solid transom. Don't underestimate how awkward this can be.

Economy - the 310 has outdrives which are more vulnerable to damage and require more maintenance. But this may be offset by savings made elsewhere. Outdrives have a better bite in the water so you get more bang per hp. The 310 is smaller so benefits from lower fees associated with mooring, lifting, tolls etc. The 33 has twin 130's vs the 310 which mostly have twin 200's. At river speeds they probably use similar amount of fuel. At full chat the 200's will use a lot more but then you'll also be moving a lot quicker. At 17kts, if the 33 will even do that, the 310 will use far less.

At sea - in a calm sea (assuming is has twin 200's) the 310 will be capable of much higher speeds and better economy but with a bumpier ride. The choppier the sea, the more you'll have to slow down. Once you're dropped to about 17kts you can't really slow down anymore without dropping to displacement speeds. The 33 will have a much softer ride and more versatile sea keeping and will have more to offer in average weather. From the sounds of it, it will also have to maintain a certain speed to stay up but probably more like 12kts than 17kts, if the Mirage design is anything to go by. By the same token a number of people have told me that the 310 has a much softer ride than, for example, the 285 - and believe me the 285 was neck jarring when running over its own wake, even when testing on the Bure.

I didn't want to have two engines and didn't need the size of a P33 but I still love the design. If I HAD to have two engines I'd rather have some with a bit of power, and that would mean the 310. If I let my heart choose I'd have the 33 because I like the design more but if I let my head rule it would probably be the 310 (assuming twin 200's) because it's got the power and speed, benefit of more modern engines, extra cabin, easier aft access and lower mooring, lift and toll fees.

[pks1702]

A fair appraisal I'd say Simon.

I have to say it would be the P33 out of the two for me every time on a number of levels.

Space, Shafts giving good low speed manoeuvrability, Keel ditto.

I take the point re transom exit it is a weak point but could be overcome.

Lastly I really would not get hung up on the speed thing. Having been based on the East Coast for the last two years I can tell you the sea conditions dictate your speed in this size of boat. The times you could cruise at full speed in a planing hull are few and far between, displacement speed in a planing hull in inclement weather is not where I would want to be. So when the conditions don't allow you to plane it is not very comfortable and when you can it is clearly fun. We find however the better the sea conditions the less speed we want to make as it is just nice being out there. In my view as a combination all round craft an SD or its ilk is the way to go.

But as someone said earlier boats are a personal thing and one man's meat and all that and whatever decision you end up making will be right for you despite all the input.

One things for sure there is always great forum interest in boat buying

Mid teens is a good sea speed any day - Kiki doing 14-15 knots (photo courtesy of another forumite )

[mbird]

You wanna watch that rubber thing on the back Perry, that must be slowing you down

In all seriousness (if we must) I do appreciate the different opinions. Just out of interest, the 310 we are semi-interested in also has twin 130's, SImon, though obviously on outdrives.

On the plus side, I do like the space in the saloon of the P33, but down side is the lack of 2 cabins where beds can be permanently made up, and the fact the engines are in the saloon which will make it a lot noisier, with possible some engine smells.

We are going to look at the 310 at the weekend, and then it all comes down to preference, and whether any sellers will actually drop to our budget level

[pks1702]

You wanna watch that rubber thing on the back Perry, that must be slowing you down

That's my wake generator Maek. It is in the up position on the photo. I'll wait until I come back up to the Broads and deploy it for the Wake Boarders

[mbird]

Ok, so what about a Fairline Phantom 32. Anyone have any experience of those. Bit of a hybrid design ....

[Guest]

In all seriousness (if we must) I do appreciate the different opinions. Just out of interest, the 310 we are semi-interested in also has twin 130's, SImon, though obviously on outdrives.

Twin 130's in a 310? That's a bit odd. Not petrols are they? I would have thought the 130's would have been long since discontinued by the time the 310 came on the seen and I have to say I would have serious doubts about its ability to plane properly.

The 130 diesels are normally AQD40's, an old non-turbo "truck" engine from the 1970's designed into the 70s but spilling over into the early 80's when the turbo versions started to come in. As with a number of Volvo diesels from around then they were not actually Volvo engines at all, just Volvo badged. The AQD32's in Silver Dream were actually Peugeot (Indenor) engines and I think the AQD40's were Perkins (similar era, similar Volvo model no, completely different engines).

Then again, so many things have appeared with a Volvo badge on over the years it's not hard to see why it gets confusing working out who did what and when they did it. Most 310's I've come across have AD41's in them - a 1980's designed turbo diesel which was in production right up until about 2005 or something. Many people have suggested to me that they are the closest thing to "bullet proof" that Volvo have ever made.

Phantom 32 is ugly as sin, in my opinion, and will almost certainly have the old AQD40's in it (or paraffin). A nicer, but much rarer design would be the Sedan 32 but I suspect the P33 will be a rather nicer boat, though probably at a higher price.

[senator]

130s in a 310 will be AD31s' frugal but on the edge even for a 310 so you need to watch your weight, they are good for 27 knots once shes up and will give somewhere between 2 and 3 miles to the gallon at 20 knots (depending on which owner you listen to). AD 31s were available in the 330 as well and that is heavier than the 310 so they will cope.

They are 4 cylinder as opposed to 6 cylinder and it is often reported that they are a bit viby and noisy, this however will only be at sea speeds so as most of your cruising will be done on rivers you may have the perfect set up,(well apart from the fact it will wonder a bit).

310's with 130's in do command a lower price on the maket to those with AD41s which are 200 hp so you stand a better chance of getting the right deal, I assume it is the one at NYA which has been up for a bit now, started at £49K and is slowly working down so an offer stands a chance.

How long is the P33? the 310 statesman is 34' so I would think they are about the same length for moorings, lifting etc but I think the P33 is a bit beamier.

Ian

[mbird]

Twin 130's in a 310? That's a bit odd. Not petrols are they? I would have thought the 130's would have been long since discontinued by the time the 310 came on the seen and I have to say I would have serious doubts about its ability to plane properly.

Here's the link http://www.nya.co.uk/boat-detail.php?bid=NYB12506, though I've just noticed it's gone under offer today. Surely they would be the AQAD31's wouldn't they, which were made from 1986-1989?

edit: Lakesailored by Ian!

[senator]

It may be under offer Mark but it is not sold, if you have 40k I would wager you would still steal it.

How is the sale of traquel breeze going?

The canopy on the one you are talking about is what I want to do to Clanny so if you buy it I will be round with my measuring tape to see how they did it.

Good luck

[mbird]

How is the sale of traquel breeze going?

Sold mate, for the full asking price The problem is we're still quite a long way short of £40k, so I'm banking a bit on someone being a bit desparate and taking a dropto my level.

[Guest]

Hi Mark

phantom 32 twin petrols needs a little work from the look of it only cosmetic BARGAIN at 16k

http://www.boatshop24.co.uk/NTIwMzV+QlNZTzAx=-Fairline_Boats_Ltd_Phantom_32.html

shame about the porta pottie tho

Jonny

[pks1702]

Sold mate, for the full asking price

Well done Mark that did not take long

Proof once again that good well maintained boats will sell even in the current climate.

[senator]

Well done on the sale, all systems go now then.

There are plenty of desperate sellers for boats that have been on the market a long time but please be carefull, as your own expierience shows good boats still sell.

Sea boats are a little different but if they have been there a long time there is probably a reason.

Petrols will be easier to bargain with as thier is a limited number of buyers but bear in mind when you come to sell the same will probably be true. If you have a budget to stick to then as already said do not rule them out, the other good thing about them is they will more than likely have been lightly used as sea miles cost, you will probably buy a boat with far less hours in much better condition for less money. not that simple though as because they are a lot cheaper, if they have been through a few owners they are more likely to fall into the hands of someone who can't afford a boat in reality. this can result in poor maintenance, the use of automotive parts, which can be disasterous if it is a starter motor or engine electricals, the automotive will not be spark protected, the use of automotive parts for engine rebuilds is also common so be carefull of any with rebuilds or new engines that do not come from a known source, these engines will last about 5 minutes.

As David said earlier, all engines will lose Hp over time so make sure the engines are big enough, both petrol and diesel.

What you want is someone who suddenly has to sell and quick, or a boat that has something that is stopping others buying it but you know, what it is and the cost to rectify, and you are not afraid to do it yourself. If you have to pay a yard to do it then generaly you would have been better passing it by and buying one with nothing wrong for a fair bit more.

Good luck with the search

[thirdmate]

Mark,

That Phantom on boatshop is a MAJOR dog. cost double the asking price to make her halfway seaworthy.

Andy

[Guest]

130s in a 310 will be AD31s'

Ah, hadn't realised they were 130hp though now you come to mention it I had the option of a Mirage with twin AD31's a while back. I asked around on YBW and was told they were horrible vibey engines, though if they're anything like the AD41's they should be very solid. I'd take the 130 horses of an AD31 over the those of an AQD40 any day.

I wonder if those are the engines in the P33 as well then?

[mbird]

I wonder if those are the engines in the P33 as well then?

No, the P33 has bigger130hp's I believe... I guess they could be the AQD40's you mentioned?

[Guest]

Hi Mark not sure if you have seen this one. A lot of boat at a very good price and if the fit out is as good as it looks could be a very nice boat. The fords are 7 ltrs I think and low revving . A friend of mine use to run one of these and was a very economical boat returning around 3 mpg at 14 kts.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1979-PRINCESS-37- ... 414a6f26f0

Jonthan

[mbird]

Thanks Jonathon, but yes, I have already clocked that one on Burton Waters website. It's under offer at the moment.

We are off to Essex tomorrow to view a Sealine 305 Statesman though .....

[Jupes]

Good luck Mark, hope it is what you are looking for.

We are off to Bracknell tomorrow on a similar venture, then staying in Nottingham with friends tomorrow evening, then Lincoln on Sunday.

[Guest chriscraft]

Sounds like your all coming north,i go to burton waters sometimes in my lunch hour!! as work in Lincoln

[Happy Jax 3]

We are off to Essex tomorrow to view a Sealine 305 Statesman though ....

Now what makes you think we are going to let you back into Essex, Mark

Good luck with the viewing mate!