Low Sulphur Diesel

[ExUserGone]

The low sulphur bit isn't the bit that attacks seals it just lacks lube properties so rotary pumps are affected worse for accelerated wear as they have rotating cam rings that run in the fuel, I didn't think inline pumps used engine oil though.

If the pump bolts directly to the engine and is driven internally then the drive seal leaking will go into the sump, if the pump attaches to a bracket on the side of the engine and is driven externally a seal failiure will leak into the bilge, it's the seal problem caused by FAME content that will cause a runaway but only if it goes into the sump.

Older marine engines tend to be internally driven, slightly more modern overhead cam automotive engines engines tend to be belt driven (as mine are).

I believe bosch rotary pumps are more forgiving of lube issues than lucas/cav/roto-diesel/delphi which are known to seize solid on too much veg oil.

[Paladin]

As a result of this thread, I've taken more notice of the 30-year-old engine in my boat. I've established that it has a Bosch VE fuel pump, which is driven by the (external) camshaft drivebelt, so there is no way it can pump diesel into the crankcase, should any seals fail. Phew!

 

(But I'll continue to use FAME-free fuel, while it's available)
 

[Mowjo]

Thanks Leo! I couldn't remember if it was the Sulphur or the FAME and to be honest I've read so many things about the low sulphur I couldn't be bothered to look again, and knew if I was wrong someone would correct me, that's why I like this site,, Oh and Leo the bit about the inline pumps was a copy and paste from a site that services pumps so it may only apply to cars anyway,,,,

 

Palidine! sounds like good news for you then,, 

 

Frank,,,,

[Oddfellow]

Forgot to mention I think most of the older engines have rotary pumps, like BMC, Thornycroft,

Early BMC 2.2s have inline pumps. The engine speed on these models is controlled by a butterfly in the air intake. Not that I expect anyone to shove their hand up and say I've got one, but the 3 litre series units can also have inline pumps.

 

Generally, if the pipes come off the pump in a line then, it's an inline pump. If they come off in a circurlar fashion (you get the idea.)

[MauriceMynah]

Thanks Andy, Tricky, but I think I can crack the code. 

[Mowjo]

Thanks Andy! I didn't realise it was that simple to tell them apart, if you go to this link and scroll down a bit there are diagrams of all three types of pump The writing is hard to read in the diagrams but it gives you a general idea of what your looking at, Tony's site is really useful and has got me out of trouble with stuff in the past, it's well worth going to the home page and saving the site to your favorites,,

http://www.tb-training.co.uk/13bfuel.htm

 

 

 

Also thanks to everyone that's added to this topic, I know there have been bits that I got wrong but not once has anyone shot me down, only politely corrected me that's why I love this site,,

 

Frank,,,,

[BroadScot]

 There I've shot you down Frank! 

 

Although not a boatowner, I have found this thread very interesting indeed.

[Mowjo]

Although not a boatowner, I have found this thread very interesting indeed.

But just think of all that Info you will be armed with when you do get a boat, even on a hire boat a little bit of extra information can get you out of trouble, and I have a question!! You say Robert Burns Country! how come I havn't heard it on the News, I'd have thought I'd have heard of a fire that size,,

[Paladin]

I've emailed BSS for their advice and I'll post their response, in due course.

I've just received a reply from the BSS Manager, as follows:

 

"We at the BSS are not qualified to provide authoritative answer to your query, but I can say I have not seen any advice from a body in authority about boat owners replacing copper fuel lines because of the potential corrosive attack of bio-fuels. Neither have we seen any evidence of copper fuel line failures.

 

The advice appears to be to monitor the impact and take measures to reduce the impact of biofuels. I’ve attached some guidance published by the British Marine Federation in 2010.

 

We at the BSS continue to monitor the impact of biofuels and any safety guidance associated with its use."

 

I have attached the BMF guidance he sent me.

 

From all the reading I've been doing over the past few days, I have reached the conclusion that a FAME content of less than 7% is unlikely to cause any drastic problems, other than initially cleaning out the tank and pipes, causing filters to block, and having an increased proclivity towards diesel bug and water retention. How long the filter clogging problem will continue would depend on how much fuel is used - the more fuel being used, the quicker the system will be 'cleaned'. But the greater the percentage of FAME, the greater potential for problems.

 

Other conclusions are available

Diesel Fuel Quality Directive - Fuel update 6Dec.pdf

[Mowjo]

Hi Paline! I read that report before, and came to the conclusion FAME free was the best option, from further reading it now seems the main concern is diesel BUG but if you use no FAME it's less likely to happen, for me it's going to be 2T and Soltron and more visual checks, The BA response surprised me they say "We at the BSS are not qualified to provide authoritative answer to your query" then go on to say, "We at the BSS continue to monitor the impact of biofuels and any safety guidance associated with its use." I would have though they would be on top of something like that considering if something corroded and leaked into the bilge you could end up with 150 litres of diesel pumped in to the Broads, as a lot of the problems with the new fuels are only just starting to show up with boat engines I don't think it will be too long before we see a few changes to the BSS

 

Frank,,,,,

[Paladin]

Mowjo, the BA weren't involved in this correspondence, but I think that was just a typo.

 

I think the BSS are being honest about their position. They aren't able to carry out exhaustive tests and, like most of us, are having to rely on such data as may become available. Clearly, there have not been instances reported to them of problems being caused by biodiesel being used in leisure boats, sufficient to cause them to change the guidance. My impression is that they have a reactive, rather than proactive, role to play. I suspect there are very few boaters running their boats on other than commercially produced fuel, and those that do will be (or should be) well aware of any risks.

 

I'm pretty sure that action would be taken if the scenario you describe actually occurred, and it could be shown that biodiesel caused a catastrophic and unforeseeable breach in the fuel system. It might even result in biodiesel being banned for leisure boating use. Now there's a thought.

[BroadScot]

Oor Rabbie broke many a young ladies hert, but I dinny remember him lichtin many fires Frank! Only fires he lit, were ones of passion, so they say.

 

 Iain.

[Mowjo]

Sorry Paladin! I meant to say BSS people, I know many boaters that fill up via jerry cans, my son in law does because he gets it cheaper at the pump and saves a few pence, but from what I can see this is the stuff to avoid, it seems most of the yards use the normal diesel so most of us are better protected, I wonder if a large spill occurred due to the use of the LS stuff and they did ban it, would they start dipping the tanks like they do for road diesels to check for red diesel, I know the LS stuff was made to cut down on air pollution but for the amount of Marine craft there are in the world I'd be more worried about water pollution, I accidently knocked a jar over with no more than a tablespoon of diesel in it and couldn't believe the area of diesel film it left in the water, we had a spill no long ago outside our marina that ended up with us being locked in or out of the marina for about three days because of the booms and soak mats every where, It's going to be interesting to see where this all goes with the BSS and BA in the future,,
 
Frank,,,,
 
Iain! if he didn't set fire to the Country who did it then???

“The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men,
Gang aft agley.
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!

[BroadScot]

Thatcher tried too Frank, and failed miserably!

[BroadScot]

http://www.robertburns.org/

 

Nowt to do with this thread anno, but a very interesting site just the same Frank.

 

Iain.

[Hockham Admiral]

Thatcher tried too Frank, and failed miserably!

Ah, Ah, Iain........ we try to keep off some subjects, they're just too combustible.........

[Hockham Admiral]

 I accidently knocked a jar over with no more than a tablespoon of diesel in it and couldn't believe the area of diesel film it left in the water, we had a spill no long ago outside our marina that ended up with us being locked in or out of the marina for about three days because of the booms and soak mats every where, It's going to be interesting to see where this all goes with the BSS and BA in the future,,

 Frank,,,,

Frank, just spray your Fairy liquid around any spill and it magically goes away!

[Mowjo]

Judi does that John any diesel near our boat gets a squirt of Ecover,  I know it works but where does the diesel actually go ??
 
 
Iain! I'm getting the hang of this Burns stuff, this one is about a man who went out in the cold and his Willie fell off and went wandering, then came home in the summer,,

Wandering Willie,,

Here awa, there awa, wandering Willie,
Here awa, there awa, haud awa hame;
Come to my bosom, my ain only dearie,
Tell me thou bring'st me my Willie the same.
Winter winds blew loud and cauld at our parting,
Fears for my Willie brought tears in my e'e,
Welcome nowhSimmer, and welcome, my Willie,
The Simmer to Nature, my Willie to me!

[MauriceMynah]

If you spray detergent onto floating oil, it breaks it down and the resulting slurry sinks to the river/broad/sea bed. When there it will dissipate and eventually degrade. It takes a while but if the pollution isn't too bad, not so long as to cause a problem.

Biodiesel of course rots down very much faster, which is why it's good in cars, less so in boats!

[Paladin]

Frank, just spray your Fairy liquid around any spill and it magically goes away!

Oh dear, NO...

 

From the Green Blue web site:

 

"Oil and fuel can enter the water in a number of ways and a small proportion of this comes from the recreational boating sector.

 

The fuel and oil used by recreational craft is lighter than crude oil and although these lighter fuels do not have the catastrophic effect of smothering marine life, they are toxic to fish and many other water species. Prolonged exposure can affect reproduction, growth and feeding, even in low concentrations. These toxins can build up in the food chain and eventually find their way into us.

 

Trying to disperse spilt oil by using detergents just exacerbates the problem. Detergents break down oil into smaller particles, which are then able to enter the water column and are more readily available to fish and aquatic life. They can strip the oils from gills making breathing difficult. What’s more, the phosphates in detergents can cause algal blooms which in turn lead to a loss of oxygen and death of aquatic life."

 

Fairy liquid is not eco-friendly and will do more damage than a small amount of diesel spillage, which will disperse naturally in a couple of days. One point about the article - very few, if any, washing up liquids contain phosphates these days, but they do contain petro-chemical products which are harmful to the environment. We use Ecover on the boat and at home. It keeps the wife's hands lovely and soft

[Mowjo]

Bad Boy John! telling me to use Fairy liquid  mind you even that's better than some of the stuff I've seen throw over the side, twice last year while at the other side of the railway bridge at Wroxham I saw two private boats empty their Porta Potty's one over the side and then one in the bushes, I took their reg numbers and reported them but I don't know if anything was done about it,,,

 

Frank,,,,

[MauriceMynah]

At the risk of starting something here, might I make a small observation.

If one dilutes a small squirt of washing up liquid, and sprays it on the fuel spill it will disperse.

Now! Why would anybody have washing up liquid on board? (answers on a postcard please)

The amount of fairy... (sorry, "detergent) ... going into the waterway at the moment is pretty large. A bit extra to sink the diesel will not make that much difference.

 

 

PS. emptying a portapotti into the river, whilst unhygienic, unpleasant and anti social, it's not actually harmful if no looblue has been added.

[Hockham Admiral]

Oh Dear, Oh Dear!

 

I just used "Fairy liquid" as a  generic term.... I doubted anyone would have heard of "Ecover liquid"..........

 

The only time I've seen it done was in a Marina when the owner sprayed some onto a diesel leak to prevent it staining all the sides of the shiney new boats there.

 

What do you do with the washing up water, then? Yes, of course, you could empty it into the loo, I guess.

[Oddfellow]

edit.  I would have though they would be on top of something like that considering if something corroded and leaked into the bilge you could end up with 150 litres of diesel pumped in to the Broads, .............................

 

My view of the BSS is that it's a largely pointless examination devised by people in suits and ties with a need to  implemented by people in boiler suits. Or to put another way, someone's reasonable idea badly implemented in the real world.

 

I saw a boat the other day that passed a BSS only months ago where the wiring (unchanged) was bunched and simply laying on the exhaust bend (thankfully, just past the water blending elbow). The disparaties between Gas Safe regulations and BSS gas regulations are laughable too. Let's just say that having a BSS is no indication that anything is safe; IMHO.

[Oddfellow]

Using detergent to disperse a small spill of diesel is bad. Please don't do it. It does not disperse the diesel, although this what appears to happen.

 

The oil molecules are attracted to and attach to the heavier soap and sink to the riverbed. Let it disperse naturally.

 

If it's a large spill, it should be soaked up with booms and other collection products