Vaughan

And then you wouldn't have to do so much dredging, would you? What's the draught of a paddle board? In inches?

OK, I think you are missing the point as well. No-one is advocating that a sea-going vessel wishing to cruise on the Broads should have its speed governed. No-one either, is advocating that private motor vessels should be speed limited. Looking at the O.P.s first post, we are talking about limiting the speed of hire boats and I for one, know very well that whatever speed you give to a hirer, he is going to use it! A lot of them only know two positions - full ahead or full astern. And I am not trying to be flippant either. I have spent most of my life in the very responsible position of having to make sure that the inland waterways boating experience, on whatever inland waterway you care to name, is as trouble free, safe and enjoyable as is practically possible. Speed limiting is just one of those myriad considerations.

Norfolk Broads Network. The clue is in the name.

A very good question. People talk about the limits of navigation for a "gin palace". But what are the limits for a paddle board or a canoe on the Broads? Some would say, very much less! But then maybe they now have support as the new "green" ecological option? A bit like Norwich CC, among many other councils, trying to ban the motor car in favour of cycle lanes that no-one actually uses? So Norwich itself, is dying on its feet. We should not let that happen on the Broads.

I have heard horrible rumours about boats being charged for doing that but there is always the floating pontoon near the junction on Breydon, put there by the BA for boats to wait for the tide. A good place to stop for lunch and watch all the other boats ploughing past against the current!

I assure you I am not arguing with you but as you say, it has been discussed often. Personally I think it is essential that the speed of a hire boat engine is limited (and so did my father) so any hire boat that I have been in charge of has always been cut down. For reasons of engine wear, overheating, servicing and fuel economy as well as pure speed. But what speed do you choose? On the Canal du Midi the speed limit is 11KPH (c. 7MPH) and so all my boats were limited to that. But then on a canal with locks, there is no tide and no current, so no need for extra power. Not even on the Etang de Thau, which is several times bigger than Breydon. On the Broads you have to have enough engine power to cross Breydon and GYS or you are simply not letting the boat out in a safe condition for your customers. It is very easy to be a bit late on the tide even if you have experience. 3 years ago I was held up leaving Reedham by early morning fog and crossed Breydon just over an hour late. Under the bascule bridge I was already stemming the full flood and I was pleased to see that Richardsons had limited the boat to exactly the speed needed to stem the tide in those circumstances. Don't forget there is also more than an hour's difference between the tides on the two rivers in Yarmouth. So coming north, you are going to be "pushing" something somewhere! More education yes, although that can never be perfect, probably even less so under COVID conditions. I am afraid it will always be "horses for courses". A boat must have enough shaft horsepower to safely navigate the whole of the Broads cruising area ; if not an under-powered boat would be a big danger in itself.

I get it now! The edit only shows in the window if you have just made a post. Just like it used to, in fact.

Not only is that statement wildly untrue but you should not assume to speak for "every boater". A while ago, I was sailing a large river cruiser, "Evening Flight", up the Yare when we were buzzed several times by a powerful speedboat towing a water skier. He made several passes, up and down, deliberately curving out as near as possible to us, to soak us in the wash from his skis. The last time, coming down towards us he made a mistake, got in the wash that he had already made and lost his balance. He came down the side of Evening Flight doing around 40MPH, leaning towards us. If he had been less than a foot further over, he would have gone through the three wire rigging shrouds on the windward side deck, rather like going through a bean slicer. They were in an area designated for water skiers and were within the permitted hours but that didn't stop them being successfully prosecuted by me. As to kayaks and paddle boards, there are speed limits on the northern Broads which are low enough to provide safety for all users, if all users behave responsibly. I rather doubt though, that someone in a kayak or on a paddle board (that is if they value their life) would be seen trying to go through Yarmouth Station, or under the bascule bridge on Breydon, where boats have to have enough engine power to stem the tide in safety. At least I sincerely hope not!

Well, I hate to rain on this particular parade, but when I think of the hundreds of hire boats I have operated in my career, I have never used an additive in any of them. I don't know whether Richardsons do? Perhaps ask Clive? What we always do however, is to change the oil in autumn, as used lub oil is mildly acidic and will eat the crankshaft journals if left in the sump for the winter. We leave changing the fuel filters and sediment traps until the spring, as if the diesel freezes in winter, some of it will solidify as paraffin wax, which leaves a light grey, filmy and slimy substance in the fuel, and this will block the fuel filter. It is found often in the pipes coming from the tank to the engine compartment, as these may be close to the hull and vulnerable to freezing. It can clearly be seen in the sediment trap, in spring. Is this, perhaps, what is known as diesel bug? Until I joined this forum I had never heard of it. Sediment will form in the bottom of old mild steel fuel tanks of its own accord, mixed with water from condensation, if the fuel tank has not been left topped up full for the winter. Another vital precaution is not to buy fuel from small yards or perhaps riverside shops which don't sell a lot and where the fuel has been in their tank for perhaps more than one winter. In that case, the fuel will already be contaminated before it gets into your tank! This is why boatyards always insist that you should not buy fuel during your holiday, as there is plenty in the boat's tanks. It's not because of price : it is to avoid bad quality fuel.

Oh, go on then . . . My father was the keeper of the Eddystone Light, and he slept with a mermaid one fine night. From out of this union there came three - a porpoise and a porgy and the other was me. chorus : (all sing). Yo, ho, the wind blows free! Oh for a life on the ro-lling sea! One night while I was trimmin' o' the glim, a' singin' a verse of the evenin' hymn, A voice from the darkness shouted "ahoy" and there was me mother, sittin' on a buoy. chorus: (sing louder). "What has become of me children three?" Me mother then she asked of me. "One was exhibited as a talking fish and the other was served in a chafing dish". Yo, ho, the wind blows free! Oh, for a life on the ro-o-ling sea! The phosphorus flashed in her seaweed hair - I looked again and me mother wasn't there. A voice came echoing out of the night - "To HELL with the keeper of the Eddystone Light!" Yo, ho, the wind blows free! Oh, for a life on the ro-o-o-ling sea!

I'll have you know my mother in law was born in Gorleston with six fingers on one hand! One of her favourite songs was "The keeper of the Eddystone Light".

My father always used to tell customers at Hearts that the only way to catch bream on the Broads was with left handed wiggle maggots. The ones that wiggled to the right weren't any good. The joke caught on in Thorpe and the newsagents on the Green used to sell them in jam jars, labelled "left handed wiggle maggots"!

Thank you very much for that Tim, I have just had the chance to see it, now the forum is back! A harrowing story, which I had not expected at at all. Where I live is in what they call Cathar Country, a scene of even more religious persecution, during the same time period. Funnily enough that had to do with Richard the Lionheart as well. I had wondered why the bones weren't discovered more than 100 years ago, when they built the Mackintosh chocolate factory on that site, which is now the Chapelfield Mall. But then the Mall has an underground multi storey car park, so I suppose that would explain it!

Only one issue for me - I can't seem to "like" your post with a thanks!

Wow, it looks like it has all come back, just now! I suddenly realised I was looking at avatars and photos again. Well done the team!

I thoroughly agree, having spent a lot of time offering my first hand experience of the facts. I can also say that a lot of what others are saying (rightly) about such things as hybrids with gensets, is already 20 year old technology which has not succeeded in practice. Ask Langford Jillings senior, if he is up there looking down on us. I shall not bother to contribute any further to this thread or any other started by this O.P.

Welcome back! Still a bit of a shadow of its former self but workable all the same. My congratulations and thanks to all concerned in the technical battle! I don't seem to be able to like Griff's post, so I thought I'd do my own!

Grendel, I don't know how to send a PM at the moment but if this problem needs money to solve it please let me know. I think you have my e-mail on file. All the best, Vaughan.

Excuse me old chap, but you have just had the benefit of this forum's experience and expertise, in several different technical fields, over the space of two days, in answer to your question. If we haven't answered it to your satisfaction you may wish to take it from here, to the BA direct?

Frankly, who cares after all these years? Let's look forward.

Well that seems to have had a unanimous vote, anyway!

All very good questions, which have been exercising the minds of hire boat operators ever since the last War. I would also point out that there are nowhere near enough boatyards left on the Broads to provide that sort of overnight infrastructure.

Very interesting reading, but I think I can add a bit, concerning the actual power needed by an electric boat. As long as 20 years ago I saw a very expensive experiment with electric hire cruisers on the Canal du Midi. 2 brand new 4 berth cruisers were fitted out by Haines in Norfolk for a private hire fleet business near Beziers. This had the full backing of the canal authority (VNF) who installed special charging points at 4 main locations on the canal, up as far as Castelnaudary. All done virtually regardless of expense with all the funding that comes with a UNESCO World Heritage Site classification. Also launched in a cloud of "green" press publicity. The experiment was a complete failure and only lasted one season, with the boats having to be towed home on several occasions. The boats were re-fitted with diesel engines and the company ceased trading not all that long afterwards. The power points are still there and soon became most useful for hotel barges to run their air conditioning! So, if you are sitting comfortably, I will tell you what went wrong, as there are several reasons : For a start, most electric boats are day launches, usually built on the lines of old-fashioned steam launches, being long narrow beam boats gliding through the water and needing very little power. Pushing the hull of a 6 berth cabin cruiser of 8 Tonnes displacement through the water with enough shaft horsepower to cross Breydon on the tide, is a rather different matter! The horsepower of diesel engines can also be expressed in kilowatts. A Nanni 4220 diesel at 2000 RPM is around 30 kilowatts and an electric motor would have to provide the same shaft horsepower to drive the same sort of boat. So 4 hours cruising a day will use around 120 Kilowatt/hours out of the batteries, which themselves will weigh several Tonnes. A modern 6 berth hire cruiser with all the goodies, but with gas cooking, is already using between 3.5 to 4 kilowatt/hours at 12 volts on the domestic supply. And that is without the microwave oven! This will now also need to be charged by shore power as the boat has no engine. Without going into detailed figures, this will require a shore power point of at least 75 amps rating and probably 100 amps, to have any hope of putting that charge back in 8 hours overnight. A realistic full charge would be more like 12 hours. I believe shore power on moorings is rated at 32 Amps. That's just twice the power of the socket where you boil your kettle in the kitchen. No wonder you can't plug 'em into the leccy point in Beccles without blowing all the fuses on the town quay! By the way, electric boat batteries are charged on DC current, not AC and most boatyard installations will charge their launches with DC direct from the quay. This backs up what Grendel has just explained, as to why houses have to be fitted with specific power installations to charge electric cars. You can't just run a plug lead out of the kitchen window. As to rapid charging, like they do in motorway services, I can tell you that the Tesla power points are charging at 210 amps at 410 volts DC for a 100% charge and even more than that for a 10 minute top up. Is this what we want to see on the lawn at Ranworth staithe in future? Or at How Hill? I rather doubt they would run it across the marshes to St Benets Abbey! Finally, there is a very important matter of logistical numbers. Supposing the BA installed 2 charging points at Ranworth, among other places. And then suppose that Richardsons (to make it viable) build 5 new electric hire cruisers. What happens if all five of them independently decide to spend the same night at Ranworth? Only two of them get charged up. The others probably get towed home to Stalham on Sunday morning. Believe me, I have seen it happen. It is also no good suggesting that the boat should have a generator for emergencies or you are defeating the whole object of the exercise!

Excuse me but I think that may be where your argument breaks down before it starts. No-one is hogging the posts. There simply may not be enough of them, and someone else got there first! You are comparing this with an electric powered car, which is not the same thing. There are no shore power points on moorings other than at boatyards, which are powerful enough to re- charge a boat with electric propulsion overnight. If you will excuse me I am a bit tired and I am off to bed. In the morning I will write something in a lot more detail, about electric boat propulsion and its charging requirements, which I hope may answer your question.

I've got webbed feet, if that's any help?