Low Sulphur Diesel

[Mowjo]

I’ll put this here because more people may read it than in the Tech bit, I mentioned that I had a bad problem with my BMC 1.5 engine, when it over ran and I couldn’t turn the engine off, I had it looked at and was told it could be the fuel injector pump, which it turned out to be, but meantime I Googled the symptoms and on a couple of the Canal forums, they mention the fuel injector pump blowing it’s seals and it’s more common now they have changed the Diesel fuel to low suphur, and they engineer doing my repairs told me he has had three cases in the last few months and in one case it over ran so badly it actually destroyed the engine, there was something in the old diesel that protected the seals but now they have removed some additives I presume to make it low sulphur, I asked if there’s an additive to replace them and was told yes! But if I get my fuel from the right place they already add it, but! some of them don’t, he said the place I’ve started getting my fuel from adds its, and that’s Moonfleet so I presume Richo’s add it as well, so when you get your fuel ask if they add the additive or get some and add it yourself, now if your injector pump goes you won’t might not know until your engine goes to full revs and you can’t turn the engine off, things to look out for are your oil level going up and down and using more fuel than normal, what happens if the injector pump seals go is the pump forces fuel into the sump and it dilutes the oil so much it by-passes the piston rings and it gets burnt as fuel causing the running on, if you don’t catch it in time it can blow your engine up, if it ever happens to you the only way to stop your engine is block off the air filter starving the engine of air, I know this is a bit doom and gloom but at least your aware of a potential expensive engine killer, as far as I can tell the problem is only with older engines,

Frank,,,,,,

[Mowjo]

Just an add on! I found this site that has more about it,,,,

http://www.canaljunction.com/boat/diesel_fuel.htm

[Stranger]

just a bit of info Sheaf Diesel Services of Sheffield 01142 612000 are doing Marine exchange injection pumps for BMC 1500  1800 and Perkins 4107 4108 for £295

[Mowjo]

That's a good price Dave! cheapest I got quoted was £349,,,

 

Frank,,,,,

[Stranger]

yeah its not bad Frank at all they have them ready done on the shelf and will post by return only extra is if theres a major fault on the pump being exchanged then there is an extra fee to pay 

[MBA Marine]

I looked in to this a couple of years back and Im sure there is a load of stuff on here regarding fuel and the FAME content, I know a few people who are using the old engines BMC Perkins ect, who are adding a little two stoke oil to their tank before filling up just to be sure that the fuel has a bit more lubrication, one guy has been doing this for his 1.5 BMC for quite a few years now, and so far no ill effects.

[SPEEDTRIPLE]

What would happen if you ran the old BMC and Perkins deisels on chip fat?. I`ve heard mixed reports about old deisels in cars using veg oil etc, but wondered if it was possible to do it on the old marine deisels?. I know it`s not viable, but if you know somone in the trade, it might be a free alternative to buying red deisel from any of the outlets.

[MBA Marine]

What would happen if you ran the old BMC and Perkins deisels on chip fat?. I`ve heard mixed reports about old deisels in cars using veg oil etc, but wondered if it was possible to do it on the old marine deisels?. I know it`s not viable, but if you know somone in the trade, it might be a free alternative to buying red deisel from any of the outlets.

If you run it neat you will clog up the injector pump, 50/50 with Diesel was fine in my old metro  many years ago, and you get to smell like a chip shop from the back!

[Mowjo]

Thanks Mark! now you mention it I remember something about adding a bit of two stroke, just can't remember where or how much to add,,

 

Frank,,,,  

[Mowjo]

Found it!     adding 2 stroke oil to the diesel. ratio of 1;200 must be the normal stuff not synthetic or semi,,

[Oddfellow]

just a bit of info Sheaf Diesel Services of Sheffield 01142 612000 are doing Marine exchange injection pumps for BMC 1500  1800 and Perkins 4107 4108 for £295

I can get exchange BMC 1.5 injection pumps for £290 locally. We can also remove and fit them if you prefer.

 

HOWEVER, not all CAV pumps on the 1.5 are the same. Older style ones will need to be overhauled on a non-exchange basis.

 

We replaced two fleet pumps last year and one already this year.

 

Prevention is better than cure. Always check your oil level and quality before firing up. Thinning oil is a sure sign of diesel in it and you'll probably be able to smell it too. Sometimes, you may not notice a rise in the oil level though, so do check the quality of the oil, not just the level.

 

 

If you get it over-running, you may not be able to stop the engine on the fuel stop. If this happens, cover the air intake and starve it of oxygen.

 

There are a number of seals that can fail on these pumps, but invariably, the ones on the drive gear go before those on the accellerator or stop shafts.

[Gordon]

, he said the place I’ve started getting my fuel from adds its, and that’s Moonfleet so I presume Richo’s add it as well,

 

Wonder if Clive can confirm this please as its where I get my fuel from.

 

A deisel engine "running away" must be a truely scary thing. The first incidence I heard of was on an old Lister standby generator when I was an apprentice. The guy was test running this, old but very low hours engine, when it took off of its own accord, despite the noise in a confined space he attempted to stop it by stuffing a rag in the air filter which only resulted in the filter "eating his rag" and the filter box collapsing. He stopped the beast by emptying a CO2 extenquisher into the remains of the filter.

 

Shortly after that we received a safety memo saying emphatically never to try to stop such an event.. Roughly translated as If the engine runs away so should you!

 

Suprisingly its does not appear to be over common on road vehicles, although we did have it happen to a Ford Explorer about 10 years ago..

 

I was thinking about this a few weeks ago as I have a deisel Mazda, the only vehicle I know where the oil level on the dipstick actually rises, this I understand is due to deisel being injected to burn out the DPF deposits, surely this must be an issue on older, poorly maintained cars that do lots of short journeys.

 

As previously stated, yes you can smell the deisel in the oil. 

[MauriceMynah]

Interesting topic! I'm a member of a forum dedicated to running diesel engines on either used veg oil or Biodiesel.

 

Used (or waste) veg oil (UVO or WVO) can be used in a lot of the older diesel engines but to work well the engine needs to be twin tanked, switching over to the veg oil when the engine is hot.

However the oil MUST be filtered down to 5 microns or finer.

 

New or "Straight" veg oil will be fine without any filtering.

 

Biodiesel (which is what I make) if well made will run in any diesel engine but seems to run best in the older engines.

 

I choose NOT to use 100% my own diesel in my boat as I know the fuel to be biodegradable, and the nature of boat fuel tanks is that the fuel can get quite old, especially in the private craft. I am however quite happy to put some in, up to 50% mix, with what we refer to as "Dino Diesel".

 

If anyone would like more information then I'd recommend the go to www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk which is the forum I mentioned before.

 

I must however warn you all that my knowledge is in quite a narrow band with this. Do check things out before going down this road.

[Mowjo]

Andy! with your three and the three in our marina it sounds like it's more common than I thought, your preventative measures and symptoms are spot on, I my case it all happened within 1/4 mile from the time I left our mooring to getting round the Dyke to the pump out, with no warning signs at all until the engine screamed and I couldn't shut it down, I ran around like a headless chicken and the wife ran out the back, I actually checked my oil and water before I even started the boat, and the oil was spot on the stick and not thinned at all, so it was very sudden with no warnings, it emptied the sump of oil and when we got back to the marina, I put in the two litres I had to hand and quickly turned the engine over to move the oil, yesterday when we got to the boat for some reason I checked the oil again and it was well past the Full mark, and very thin I thought it may be water as there was no smell of diesel, even the Mechanic mentioned it, when he finally got the pump off he upended it and it came past the seal like someone turned a tap on, so it's gone to be reconditioned, the other thing I noticed was that my diesel had dropped by over five litres so I presume all that was pumped into the sump,

 

Frank,,,, 

[Oddfellow]

The additive was adjusted about 24 months ago in most fuel so it's taken some time to cause seal failures. Obviously, if the boats used more, the degradation is swifter.

 

I have little doubt that we'll be overhauling the remainder of our fleet pumps in the next 12 months and many private owners will be faced with similar bills.

 

 

[Mowjo]

Andy! I hope they have strong hearts if it happens and a change of underpants, it scared the crap out of me, I think it was the not knowing how to stop the engine and waiting for a big bang and even bigger repair bill,,,,

 

Frank,,,,,

[C.Ricko]

We don't add anything to our diesel.

the problem occurred a couple of seasons ago with older seals in injector pumps not being keen on the new fuel, we were very busy swapping pumps on the old engines, new new seals are not affected and neither are the new engines.

 

Keep a regular eye on the engine oil level, it is a early warning sign..

[Guest]

It's strange how situations can change, when you think that certain factors are fixed forever.

 

When I changed from Diesel boats back to a petrol inboard a few years ago I never imagined that they would mess about with diesel fuel and introduce this new problem, after so many decades of cheap old red.

 

In case I'm ever moored near someone who gets this "running away" problem, I was just thinking about whether I would be able to give assistance.

 

If the engine has the old decompression pull cable, (as did most of the older engines with injector pump seals likely to fail), wouldn't that still stop the engine ok ?

 

Also, do I understand it correctly then that the more modern electric solenoid fuel stop valves don't stop the engine because it's then running on the lubrication oil being sucked up from the sump through the failed seals ?  So they can only be stopped by blocking the air intake ?

 

How likely is it on an older diesel road vehicle ? I run a 15 year old VW camper with a normally aspirated 5 cylinder diesel that's fitted with the old fashioned mechanical injector pump, rather than electronic.  Would the seals on that be susceptible to failure from the new additives ?

 

I ask because that is stopped by an electric solenoid fuel stop valve !

[Oddfellow]

Decompression should stop the engine, but this isn't common really.

 

Most stop systems rely on cutting the fuel in the injection pump, either manually or by some kind of solinoid valve. But if it's running away, this isn't what's being burned so it won't stop it.

 

I am unsure as to whether the change is with road diesel as well as red.

 

For the record, we've spotted another pump going over the weekend.

 

It's very common and you need to keep a regular eye on it.

[Guest]

I bow to your wider experience with boat engines Andy, I had got the wrong impression about decrompressor valves. I've only ever had BMC's and a Yanmar, and both had them.

 

The Yanmar even had one for each cylinder, so you could ease the start up load if the battery was low.

 

I guess you're right also about it not being an issue with road diesel or we'd have heard some real horroor stories of cars suddenly launching themselves at full throttle down the high street ! 

[Guest]

If you look on YouTube there's many videos of diesel cars 'running away' as they call it...

 

Well I've certainly learnt something new there Jonzo, and useful to know too.

 

As you say, and not just youtube either, quite a few hits on Google.

 

At least my VW is non-turbo, so that removes one of the potential causes, leaking turbo seals.

 

It also sounds more controllable in a car, where it seems you can just apply the brakes if in top or a high gear, unlike with boats where nothing practical and quick can stop the prop.

[Mowjo]

A bit more Info I found!!


Effects of 2t oil added to diesel engines.

Due to the pollution control measures of the EC diesel-oil is nearly sulphur free and contains up to 5% of bio-diesel. Sulphur has the property to grease the high pressure injection pump and the injectors. Without sulphur, the reduced greasing property of the new diesel has already shown negative impacts on the long-term stability of the injectors and the high pressure pump. The pump manufacturers have tried to react by lining the moving parts of the pumps with Teflon or other suitable material. However, the long term stability is still not achieved as with the old (sulphur contained) diesel.
The engine-research centre of a well-known German car manufacturer has conducted some long term tests of diesel additives to find out whether any one of them will have an impact on the long term reliability of the diesel engine components. The results of this research: any diesel additive of any manufacturer presently on the market is not worth the money!

BUT: 2-stroke oil, which we use in our motor saws, lawn mower or in 2-stroke motor engines has shown to have an extreme positive impact on diesel engines, if such 2-stroke oil is added to the diesel in a homeopathic doses of 1:200. In practical terms: 0,300 litre of 2-stroke oil into the 70lt diesel tank. The 2-stroke oil will be absorbed by the diesel (emulsion) and grease every moving part of the high pressure pump and the injectors.
Besides this, the 2-stroke oil will keep the diesel engine clean, as it burns cleaner as the diesel itself.
In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clog, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less. in Germany we have to present our cars every 2 years to the TUV -Technical Supervision Organisation - who will check, amongst others, the pollution of petrol and diesel engines.
The measured cloud-factor of a diesel engine without use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,95.
The same factor with the use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,47 - reduction of nearly half of the soot particles.
Besides this, the use of 2-stroke oil in the diesel will increase the mileage by 3-5%.

 

Frank,,,,,,

[Oddfellow]

I bow to your wider experience with boat engines Andy, I had got the wrong impression about decrompressor valves. I've only ever had BMC's and a Yanmar, and both had them.

BMC vedettes have them (i think) but the 1.5, 2.2 and 2.5 diesels don't

[MBA Marine]

A bit more Info I found!!

Effects of 2t oil added to diesel engines.

Due to the pollution control measures of the EC diesel-oil is nearly sulphur free and contains up to 5% of bio-diesel. Sulphur has the property to grease the high pressure injection pump and the injectors. Without sulphur, the reduced greasing property of the new diesel has already shown negative impacts on the long-term stability of the injectors and the high pressure pump. The pump manufacturers have tried to react by lining the moving parts of the pumps with Teflon or other suitable material. However, the long term stability is still not achieved as with the old (sulphur contained) diesel.

The engine-research centre of a well-known German car manufacturer has conducted some long term tests of diesel additives to find out whether any one of them will have an impact on the long term reliability of the diesel engine components. The results of this research: any diesel additive of any manufacturer presently on the market is not worth the money!

BUT: 2-stroke oil, which we use in our motor saws, lawn mower or in 2-stroke motor engines has shown to have an extreme positive impact on diesel engines, if such 2-stroke oil is added to the diesel in a homeopathic doses of 1:200. In practical terms: 0,300 litre of 2-stroke oil into the 70lt diesel tank. The 2-stroke oil will be absorbed by the diesel (emulsion) and grease every moving part of the high pressure pump and the injectors.

Besides this, the 2-stroke oil will keep the diesel engine clean, as it burns cleaner as the diesel itself.

In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clog, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less. in Germany we have to present our cars every 2 years to the TUV -Technical Supervision Organisation - who will check, amongst others, the pollution of petrol and diesel engines.

The measured cloud-factor of a diesel engine without use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,95.

The same factor with the use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,47 - reduction of nearly half of the soot particles.

Besides this, the use of 2-stroke oil in the diesel will increase the mileage by 3-5%.

 

Frank,,,,,,

Always good when someone finds factual evidence to back up advice I gave.   

[Paladin]

Always good when someone finds factual evidence to back up advice I gave.   

 

I may be an old cynic, but have you tried putting the first sentence of the 'factual evidence' into a search engine? The whole article turns up on forum after forum, in all parts of the globe, and I have been unable to find the source. The posters refer to having found it on another forum, or a friend receiving it in an email. If anyone can find the original source, I would be very interested. One reference was to an old article, which the poster couldn't find again.

 

That said, I have been using 2T oil in my diesel-engined boat for a couple of years now, at the 'recommended' 200:1 dosage. From what I have been able to find out, low ash 2T oil, to JASCO-FC standard, is what should be used. I use Castrol Activ-2T

 

Regular guests on board have commented (without any prompting) how smoothly and quietly the engine runs now, compared to when I first bought the boat.