BSS Certificate Question :- Transplanting A Touring Caravan Wiring Loom Into A Boat.

[Admiraldingley]

Hi

I have recently scrapped my touring caravan, whilst doing so I took the entire wiring loom out intact.
We have a seamaster 25 admiral, would a caravans 12v/240v wiring loom be deemed safe for a boat?
And more specifically would it pass the BSS certificate I have due in January.

Assume I know what I'm doing with the installation side (I just need to know if there are any generic issues with passing the BSS)

 

I have already been informed that I'd have to swap the hook up cable from the tourer for a hook up socket on the outside of the boat.

[dom]

What type of cable is the 240v side? T&E, white or blue flex?

On the 12v side, you might find the chassis was being used for grounding. That may cause issues with BSS and 2 wire checks (Section 3.7). That aside, BSS is mostly just checking connections are firm, everything is fused and batteries are secure, so nothing else obvious springs to mind.

As a former auto-electrician, my initial gut feeling is, it's probably making work for yourself - and potentially using material which could be degrading due to age.

[Smoggy]

If the 240v part uses twin+earth with single core conductors it will not be good for bss, all conductors must be multi strand.

Best bet is to download the guide from the bss website.

[floydraser]

Good recycling! 

I would hope the wiring is designed to be left in a field for most of it's life so it should be tough. I hope mine is anyway! Apart from what Smoggy has pointed out, they are looking for a neat and organised installation and it sounds like you'll have that covered.

Alternatively, strip the plastic off and weigh it in. 

[dom]

29 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Alternatively, strip the plastic off and weigh it in. 

I was going to suggest that, but did a quick bit of mental arithmetic and think it'd probably be barely worth it.

[Admiraldingley]

ah right ok I'll start from scratch.
I have a seamaster 25 admiral, that was never wired up correctly for a 240v system.
It has standard internal appliance cables running from a standard 240v fuse box & breakers to power 2 x twin power sockets, the hookup plug is adjacent to the fuse box and both are mounted on the outside of the seating beside a twin plug socket, right under where you're likely to stand on them if you're not careful getting in the boat, and I have kids that aren't.
And then an additional 2 x 2 socket facia's (no safety fuse between them).

Beyond that it has the original 12v cabling system intact with an additional (15a car wire) loom to 3 lights.
Then it's had a solar bodge thrown in at some point, with redundant cables here there and everywhere.

I'm replacing the solar system for a proper setup.
I intend to keep as much of the original cabling as possible.
But seeing as I have a wiring loom already capable of charging a 12v battery from the mains, + all the cabling for 12v devices, sockets etc.
The only twin & earth sections of the loom are the standard external extention cabling.

 

[Admiraldingley]

1 hour ago, dom said:

I was going to suggest that, but did a quick bit of mental arithmetic and think it'd probably be barely worth it.

Yes my thoughts exactly, but I also have to re-cable the entire of my boat, 240v side for certain, but the 12v side is also the original 1960s cabling, the tourer was mid 1990s, apart from the age its pretty much the same stuff give or take 5amps here for the 12v stuff at least.

Hmm maybe I was wrong in assuming the cabling to be incorrect then, I mean yes its incorrect 'cos it's internal appliance cable, but I guess external extension cabling would be the way to go with wiring up the sockets from the fuse box.

tbh I was kind of hoping the answer would be a simple, yes, so that I can just prune off what I don't want from this caravan loom, utilize the odd perk here and there that the boat doesn't currently have (240v/12v fridge integration) and so on.

[Admiraldingley]

7 hours ago, dom said:

What type of cable is the 240v side? T&E, white or blue flex?

On the 12v side, you might find the chassis was being used for grounding. That may cause issues with BSS and 2 wire checks (Section 3.7). That aside, BSS is mostly just checking connections are firm, everything is fused and batteries are secure, so nothing else obvious springs to mind.

As a former auto-electrician, my initial gut feeling is, it's probably making work for yourself - and potentially using material which could be degrading due to age.

White & coloured flex, lights were green, sockets brown & things like water heater / pumps / taps are blue.

[dom]

Personally, I'd say replacing 60 year old cabling with 30 year old cabling is probably false economy. The problem with copper cable is when it gets old, it can either oxidise or corrode within the sheathing and fail with no external indication.

I'm not 100% sure I'm completely understanding what you're proposing, and whether what you're trying to repurpose is some sort of old 240v to 12v charging hardware. If so, I'd be even less likely to reuse in this case, as modern hardware has improved substantially in the fairly recent past and is reasonably economically priced in a lot of cases.

I've not studied the 240v sections of BSS to any great extent, but have a feeling there may be a requirement for a sturdy cover if an external hookup socket is in an exposed position. If you go on the BSS scheme website, all the criteria are downloadable in a PDF.

[Admiraldingley]

 I do hear what your saying about the age of cables, as a data installation engineer I'm aware of age and attenuation issues in copper cabling, to say the least.
I currently have the ceiling panels down in both cabins, whilst I have access to the original cabling I intend to replace it.
I have purchased 15a off the shelf cable from Halfords, but imo the older sheathing is far superior to the modern stuff that you can tell by touch will turn brittle quicker.
It'd be too expensive atm replacing the whole boat loom for new cabling (although I will be using new cables for runs that will be permanently closed off).  I have some good usable stuff that has been contained in walls & trunking, yes there is a risk of degradation, but I think its a slim one.
I can keep a lot of what is already there and working as is, I can replace spliced cables and the like for proper connections, replacing the old cables as and when I replace the console equipment & gauges etc.
And in future when I have the time and money I can replace them with new cabling.
I can assure you in regards to the PSU that has 12v charging capabilities technology hasn't shifted one mm in the last 30 years, each component, capacitors, resistors, transformers, all of it is still identical to how they were made 30 years ago.
I'm currently repairing me 3000w Renogy inverter (again), its all exactly the same off the shelf parts as they've always been.
Solar charging units are a different kettle of fish though, those are predominantly new technology.
I think I will pop open the 240v-12v charging unit I purchased to make sure it is repairable, it's designed to be a permanent charger.

[annv]

The word Halfords is the clue, Go to a proper Electrical source Wards at Brundel is a good start, What is your boat or life worth? to protect it from fire. John

[grendel]

sourcing decent electrical wiring is a nightmare at the moment, cheap imports from china and elsewhere are marked up for a size, but have been found to contain smaller conductors that they are quoted as being (half the copper means half the price) so its a buyer beware market at the moment, even reputable suppliers are being supplied with this stuff and unknowingly selling it on so its unsurprising that halfords may be selling a lower quality product.

[dom]

4 hours ago, Admiraldingley said:

I can assure you in regards to the PSU that has 12v charging capabilities technology hasn't shifted one mm in the last 30 years, each component, capacitors, resistors, transformers, all of it is still identical to how they were made 30 years ago

Sorry, but that's plain wrong. An older charger will be exactly as you describe it - basically just a PSU, which simply bulk charges. They can't be left connected for prolonged periods and are far from optimal in terms of charging performance.

Modern units may use similar components (in reality far more SMT and much more complex microprocessor control), but charger technology is radically different. Good units detect battery state, desulphate, destratify, ramp up to bulk charge then float charge. The best units switch to a long term pulse charge, also automatically dropping back into bulk charging if the battery voltage drops. This gives quite a few major benefits:

• Reduced sulphation - probably the biggest killer of batteries, especially in applications which are used infrequently
• Dramatically longer battery life
• Faster charging - but especially more charge added in short connection periods. Particularly beneficial if you just get access to a mains hookup for a period of time shorter than a full charge cycle.
• Reconditioning modes, which can salvage batteries otherwise in need of replacement
• Can be left connected for prolonged periods
• Substantially better regulated output voltage, which prevents overcharging type issues
• Compatible with different battery technologies, ie. AGM, Ca/Ca, GEL, EFB, etc

I managed a business selling one of the market leading brands for quite a few years, and have supplied 10s of thousands of units which are OEM spec for BMW, Bentley, Mercedes, Aston Martin, etc, etc (plus a marine range). A lot of these vehicles have to have more complex charging as they tend to suffer damage with traditional units.

 

[Admiraldingley]

Again dom I hear what you're saying, and I can agree that the modern equipment that micromanage charging and have autodetection hardware installed are indeed modern tech, with galvanic resistors and the like.
But the old style PSU units don't have processors, and although it may not be able to de-sulphate and repair batteries, I have 3 stand alone charging units that can do that if needed.  This PSU is strictly for running a cable from the mains to the front of the boat where this psu will charge a leisure battery (solely for the purpose of kids usb devices and car stereo/speakers.
Back to the technology though, resistors/capacitors/transformers/diodes and the like are still the same patented designs they've always been, there have been no tech upgrades with the exception of the new silicone galvanic style tech which isn't really a tech upgrade but a whole different tech altogether, it also can't be repaired if ought goes wrong, 'cos not many people can replace machine soldered joints.
With the old tech if a capacitor pops you can easily buy a new one and replace it, one of the reasons I'm opting for this charging unit.
I have an NVQ lvl 3 in Electronics (granted the course was taken in my teens over 20 years ago) but I'm a dab hand with a multi-meter & soldering Iron, I also had 3 years experience fault finding & fixing old CRT monitors, so I'm confident in the tech I can see, it may be 30+ years old, but so's my record player, Atari ST & Amstrad 6128k, I don't worry about these items catching fire either.

[oldgregg]

Surely the only answer here is this: Just rewire it. Yes it'll cost more and take longer, but anything else is pointless.

If you want, I'll show you some pics of a boat that probably could have done with a rewire. I've got them from both before and after the mini-digger broke it up following the fire.

[Admiraldingley]

5 hours ago, annv said:

The word Halfords is the clue, Go to a proper Electrical source Wards at Brundel is a good start, What is your boat or life worth? to protect it from fire. John

Should I rewire my house 'cos the cabling in it is from the 50s (most of England's 240v residential cabling is pre-50s, I'm no more concerned about a house fire than I am a boat fire, as long as my load doesn't exceed the wirings looms capability, fire will never be an issue.
This thread really isn't about my judgement on the cable or equipment's usability, it was merely a request for a heads up on what I need to watch out for in a BSS assessment.
I have taken the advice given on board, no matter how absurd I may consider it, I'll read the fluff and at the very least advice given has deterred me from installing household solid core twin & earth, 'cos that is what I was planning.
Now it doesn't seem so far fetched to be using standard internal appliance cabling, although I'll likely replace it with external extension cabling instead, the only real difference being in how long the sheathing lasts (this internal stuff has lasted since it was installed in 2002, going by the receipts and has passed its BSS test a few times with it).
I think I've about exhausted this thread, I do appreciate the help, I've downloaded the BSS requirements, going to go through it when I get a chance.
 

[grendel]

23 minutes ago, Admiraldingley said:

and at the very least advice given has deterred me from installing household solid core twin & earth, 'cos that is what I was planning.

the reason behind this is the vibration the wire will experience on a boat is more likely to break solid conductors than stranded.

[Smoggy]

Most of my 240v wiring is done with 3 core arctic cable,  the issue with solid conductor cable is the lack of flex to resist fatigue from continual vibration that most boats have when running.

Edit: Bu55er beaten by Mr.G again.

[Bikertov]

8 hours ago, Admiraldingley said:

I can assure you in regards to the PSU that has 12v charging capabilities technology hasn't shifted one mm in the last 30 years, each component, capacitors, resistors, transformers, all of it is still identical to how they were made 30 years ago.

Actually, chargers (and PSU's) have moved on a lot. From old style transformers with bridge rectifiers, to Switched Mode technology and beyond. These newer technologies are much more efficient, resulting in less heat being generated and the resultant reduction in the cost to run them

They can now be "smart", with Bluetooth connectivity to monitor charge state, and as Dom said variable charge profiles for the different battery technologies that are now on the market.

Even the components have changed, being SMD (surface mount) and processor controlled, rather than full sized discrete

So by no means are they identical !

I would even argue that on energy efficiency alone, being, say, 15% more efficient at 93% or more, a new smart charger could pay for itself in a year or two. Add in elongating battery life by another 10% (at, say, £500+ for a typical battery bank), and it is a "no brainer"

[grendel]

I have an old victron here i am trying to repair, the problem is the component that has failed doesnt seem to even be available anymore, the failed charger has been replaced with its modern equivalent, and i am willing to bet looks nothing like the old one inside, even though it looks identical on the outside

[Bikertov]

44 minutes ago, Admiraldingley said:

Should I rewire my house 'cos the cabling in it is from the 50s (most of England's 240v residential cabling is pre-50s, I'm no more concerned about a house fire than I am a boat fire, as long as my load doesn't exceed the wirings looms capability, fire will never be an issue.

I would say yes, rewire 70 year old house cabling !

It is shocking (pun intended) the state of some old house wiring, and that can be a major cause of fires. From under-rated and perished/brittle cables, to poor fittings and added spurs and radial circuits.

I have completely rewired my last 2 houses and a number of flats too, from top-to-bottom, and am glad I did.

[Admiraldingley]

37 minutes ago, Bikertov said:

Actually, chargers (and PSU's) have moved on a lot. From old style transformers with bridge rectifiers, to Switched Mode technology and beyond. These newer technologies are much more efficient, resulting in less heat being generated and the resultant reduction in the cost to run them

They can now be "smart", with Bluetooth connectivity to monitor charge state, and as Dom said variable charge profiles for the different battery technologies that are now on the market.

Even the components have changed, being SMD (surface mount) and processor controlled, rather than full sized discrete

So by no means are they identical !

I would even argue that on energy efficiency alone, being, say, 15% more efficient at 93% or more, a new smart charger could pay for itself in a year or two. Add in elongating battery life by another 10% (at, say, £500+ for a typical battery bank), and it is a "no brainer"

I know I already stated above that modern tech is a whole new tech.
But it isn't really an upgrade on old tech, its just different tech, sometimes though smart tech just isn't needed.
I'll be a little more specific, I'll be having 2 x 600w solar panels that will be feeding my battery bank on a totally separate loom, this is pretty much going to be a top of the range install.
Then with the 240v wiring, considering I have about 200mt of external hook up cable I know I have more than I need to run feeds around the boat, at the front of the boat there will be a stand alone leisure battery in its custom built housing with its little 30 year old charging unit fed from the breaker switch, a switch will be mounted on the facia to turn the charger on/off (alongside battery gauge, usb sockets, stereo and so on.
With the exception of the stereo & speakers I can't see this battery doing more than charging up phones & portable battery banks.
And then they'll intersect where necessary.

At present I'm only at the stage where I'm mapping out the nest of cables, and determining what is and isn't usable.
I'm going to give this PSU a good bench & pat test now that I've got it free, the caravan battery needs charging anyway, so its now my guinea pig.

Anyway, each of the boats looms (including new console panel) will be built and tested at home, and then one by one transplanted into the boat.  I'm also trying to cable it with future light show parades in mind whilst I'm at it.

[Smoggy]

What are the dimensions of the solar panels? 2x 600w sounds big for a seamaster 25 roof.

[Admiraldingley]

14 minutes ago, Smoggy said:

What are the dimensions of the solar panels? 2x 600w sounds big for a seamaster 25 roof.

Very perceptive of you, I think they're either 3ft x 5ft or 4ft x 6ft, I don't recall without looking at the notes :)
I don't appear to have any photo's of the underside of the vent, that's also braced & sealed.

They'll look (and act) like big solar sails, one on either side, I'll be able to lower them for bridges and i'll pop some hydraulic arms on them so they lift themselves back up.

(I'm letting the weather take the paint back to plastic, I scrape a bit more off each time I visit and give it a quick sand, I expect to gel coat it in 2038).

[Admiraldingley]

As of yet I'm only guessing how they'll impede my vision when on the move, whether I'd have to lower them to move, or whether I could install a camera system that I can hook up to with the laptop, I'm certainly thinking of some reversing camera's on either side of the boat anyway.
I know I have ambitious plans for our boat, but that's only 'cos I already have the stuff to make it doable.
I just need the time to actually do it.
For example, next job will be to take out that vent that's been sillyconed up next to the hatch so I can fit the front brackets on, it's right in the way of where i need my wooden block to go (which in itself is going to be a pain, sanding to the profile of the roof section 'cos it isn't a straight cut.