Lord Roberts

[Vaughan]

29 minutes ago, floydraser said:

But on the subject of wood: I owned a 1936 MG SA which had an ash frame. Well it would have had at the start but it had rotted away by the time I rescued it. On researching the frame building process it seems that a lot of wood was actually wasted in that a lot was carved away to achieve a certain shape. Would it be the same for boat building and would it an acceptable use of wood these days?

Your question has one or two answers :

A clinker built wherry relies on its frames, "timbers", and knees for the strength of the hull.  These were selected by foresters and timber merchants from the branches of the oak tree but not the trunk, so that the grain of the wood took the same shape as the desired frame.  This gives enormously more strength.  Oak forests and plantations, going back to the days of Nelson and before, were planted close together so that the trees searched upwards for the sunlight as they grew.  This created (over about 200 years) very long, wide, straight trunks.  But they still had the spread, knarled and crooked shape of the traditional oak tree up on top!  It was from these crooked trunks that a ship or boatbuilder would actually select the "crooks" that he wanted to season and use, before the forester even cut the tree down!

I am talking of a bygone age of course, but go into the depths of the New Forest, look at those huge trees and you can understand how HMS Victory was built.

As Marshman says, the only way to reproduce this strength in the frames nowadays would be by lamination.

As to GRP hulls, lots of traditional sailing classes on the Broads have accepted GRP as a building material and there is no doubt that it has taken those boat classes into the future, where otherwise they would have died out.

In a wherry, however, I think it would also be a matter of weight, since it is a very shallow draft boat which, quite uniquely in a cargo carrier, has no standing rigging to support the mast and sail.  These rely entirely on the  massive strength of the hull and main beams.  I am not sure how you would achieve that in Fibreglass.

Significantly, I believe the Albion now carries over 10 tons of ballast in the hold, to maintain her shape and improve her sailing qualities.

 

[marshman]

Quite correct Vaughan - and in addition to that, when the new keel was added, further weight was added low down too..

[floydraser]

1 hour ago, Vaughan said:

 Oak forests and plantations, going back to the days of Nelson and before, were planted close together so that the trees searched upwards for the sunlight as they grew.  This created (over about 200 years) very long, wide, straight trunks.  

 

Wow. Imagine planting something with a plan to use it in 200 years time! I guess they had no idea how quickly technology would be moving on. 

[Bikertov]

Jokes aside - fascinating insight into bygone construction methods

[AndyTBoater]

This

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/visingso-oak-forest

I did read somewhere that they matured about 5 years ago and are ready for use now. 

[Vaughan]

59 minutes ago, AndyTBoater said:

I did read somewhere that they matured about 5 years ago and are ready for use now. 

Thanks for posting that, which shows how you end up with what looks like a normal oak tree, on an extremely long stalk!

On the high ground to the south of the Thames valley at Pangbourne, where I went to school, is a large wood which was planted specially for the growing of trees for building ships.  These trees were badly damaged in the hurricane force storm (was it 1987?) when many of them were blown over.  I visited there not long afterwards when they were being cleared and was able to count the rings in the sawn trunks.  I could clearly count at least 200 rings and there may well have been 50 more.

[harrier]

Thanks for the figures, much appreciated. I assume that was materials and labour, not just materials alone? 

On 19/10/2022 at 09:40, oldgregg said:

I seem to remember hearing that White Moth cost £150,000 to rebuild in the late eighties.

Anyone that saw her in Colin Facey's shed during that rebuild will know that VERY little original timber remained - I think essentially the keel is original, but pretty much everything else was replaced.

Having myself stood in what was at the time essentially a massive half-decker and being surrounded by new timber everywhere, I'd say White Moth is the closest anyone has come to building a Wherry in 'recent' times.

A quick RPI check suggests that £150K in 1987 is north of half a million notes nowadays. And that's assuming you can find someone who can / will build one.

 

[harrier]

Thank you all for your replies. Just to follow on from some of the points raised...

Obviously the timbers would be laminated, grown frames would be slightly mad, I think. And I don't think finding enough wood would be quite as difficult as indicated. Sailcloth? Well, of course sails are expensive, but if you were thinking I was planning to go for a truly authentic, original sailcloth, I can assure you I wasn't. I mean, I also wasn't thinking America's Cup modern style either--there's good stuff in between the two extremes that looks nice like the old-fashioned sails but is up to modern standards.

To be honest, I probably should have said that I wasn't really asking about a completely authentic reproduction. You could even have an aluminium mast, a plywood deck (covered in veneer so it still looks proper), etc. 

As for why anyone would build it? Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you why I would. Principally to live on, and to charter, and to travel about in. Why a wherry? Well, there aren't that many classes of boat that I know of that are big enough for several people to live on and have a draught of around 4 feet. And before you say narrowboat, I must stress that I'm only interested in sailboats. Of course if I wasn't interested in sailing, or in wooden boats, I'd just buy a steel canalboat and settle down comfortably, saving myself hassle, time and money!

But seriously, other than a Thames Barge, which would be even madder, what else is there? 

And I know I do sound a bit mad. But after all, they probably thought that about Edison before he invented the lightbulb, or to use a more relevant example, Linda and Vincent when they decided to restore Maud... :)

 

[Robin]

Hi Guys

You may be interested to know boat building timbers are still available if you know where to look. there are a couple of companies who still provide crooks, one in Yorkshire whose name escapes me at the moment and one in Wales.

The boat building timber supplies co  in Monmothshire,  who's web site shows grown  Crooks. you will have to do a web search as i cant work out how to do a link.

Robin

[dom]

Just been reading back through this thread, as I used to canoe around Lord Roberts with a friend in my teens - actually further out of Wroxham, rather than in Royall's dyke/near Wildwood as some have suggested. She was remarkably intact and always creeped me out a bit, as it was quite like visiting the Mary Celeste.

Has anyone heard any more about her of late? Seems odd given current interest in heritage if she's allowed to just rot away.

 

[marshman]

Still there as far as I am aware - it would be cheaper now to build another one rather than sort the Lord Roberts out. She was in a bit of a state when she was moved to Wroxham, and I doubt she is any better now! 

I suppose as she is probably nearly completely submerged, it will help to preserve her! It is hard enough to keep the existing wherries going and running without adding another and to what end, I wonder? 

[dom]

21 minutes ago, marshman said:

Still there as far as I am aware

Oh well, that's something I suppose. As you say, maybe she's well enough preserved that someone will eventually do something with her.

Main reason I was looking was it suddenly occurred to me that the recent Church Fields/St.John's Way housing development might have encroached on the dyke where I last saw her. Church Farm farmhouse has stopped the development before it reached that point though.

I can only assume the dyke was a staithe at some point. It seems to pre-date 1881 and is arrow straight. I presume the neighbouring land belongs to the Hoveton House estate. Pity, as the dyke could potentially be dredged and widened to create a nice mooring within walking distance of Hoveton. Shame the BA haven't got the vision to see the need for moorings downstream of the bridge and to look for solutions like this.

 

[Vaughan]

The Lord Roberts was purchased back in the 70s when I was active in the Wherry Trust and we had the same old discussions about what to do with her!

The deeds of the Trust stipulate the preserving of "one or more examples" of a trading wherry "in sailing condition".  In other words, not just a static museum piece.  The whole idea of the Trust (in my view) is to ensure that all of us who love the Broads can still see that great black sail coming in over the trees at sunset, or gliding across the marshes.  To me it is not only the boat herself, but her iconic image and history.  At least now, with the Maud and her own trust, we have "one or more examples" sailing the Broads.  Looking back I am glad we never tried to restore her at that time.  It was clear that the Trust could not afford it and at least Albion is now in the safest hands that she possibly could be.