Sundog formally known as Alice

[LizG]

The picture with B823 is the one posted by imtamping2 earlier today

[Laurabassam86]

yea i found it. Iwas told this was sundog aslo this picture happens to be in the edp ages ago saying its sundog

 

[imtamping2]

Linky....

http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/boat_archive_1_1807322?id=7&storyId=1

[JennyMorgan]

If we look at the available records Sun Dog was apparently the only clincher built wherry to have had a counter. That aside I was told that the hulk was Sun Dog! If I take my Longboat as an example, when she was first registered she was listed as an auxiliary. When my engine died the BA re-registered her as a sailing boat, hence her numbers changed. Perhaps Sun Dog's registration changed when she changed from being a sailing vessel to a house boat, for example? 

Click on:

http://www.broads.org.uk/wiki/index.php5?title=Boat_Details&BoatId=2967

The mystery deepens!!

http://www.broads.org.uk/wiki/index.php5?title=Boats_matching_search&RegNo=&bname=&aand=EQ&tand=EQ&quicksearch=B823

[Laurabassam86]

This is another one we found but wer not to sure if it has A867 on it. Crazy that there isnt Much info on Sundog at all and everyone has such different storys about what has happened to her. The only thing i know for sure id that her mast is in Royalls garden.

 

[JennyMorgan]

Laura, I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that it was Sundog that was broken up and burnt at Geldeston. I don't know who owned her but when I spoke to him he told me that when he discovered that her back was broken that the job was beyond him. The next I heard that she had been broken up. Planks had been taken out and she had hogged quite badly, such a shame but unless the owner had adequate expertise and a very healthy bank account then Sundog was doomed. As it was she was well past her end of life, she had been inadequately chocked up and her counter had dropped. Her covers had been allowed to deteriorate and rain had done its worst. I suspect that there really was no other realistic option other than to break her up.  You must remember that there were hundreds of wherries at one time, very few had much of a recorded life, in life they weren't seen as potential history. You are very lucky, your family has history and a Broads heritage behind you, rejoice in that!

[JennyMorgan]

Looking at the bow on shots of Sundog, both the EDP and the one at Geldeston, the portholes are in the same position. What does mystify me is that in the Geldeston picture there is a wherry mast laying besides the hull. Was it her original mast or one acquired with a view to re-rigging Sundog? We shall never know, indeed we can only guess. At one time there were redundant wherry masts standing both at Beccles and Oulton Broad Yacht Stations, perhaps spare ones weren't too hard to find, fifty or more years ago!. 

[Laurabassam86]

57 minutes ago, JennyMorgan said:

Laura, I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that it was Sundog that was broken up and burnt at Geldeston. I don't know who owned her but when I spoke to him he told me that when he discovered that her back was broken that the job was beyond him. The next I heard that she had been broken up. Planks had been taken out and she had hogged quite badly, such a shame but unless the owner had adequate expertise and a very healthy bank account then Sundog was doomed. As it was she was well past her end of life, she had been inadequately chocked up and her counter had dropped. Her covers had been allowed to deteriorate and rain had done its worst. I suspect that there really was no other realistic option other than to break her up.  You must remember that there were hundreds of wherries at one time, very few had much of a recorded life, in life they weren't seen as potential history. You are very lucky, your family has history and a Broads heritage behind you, rejoice in that!

My Grandad James Hyde (jim) defo know pulled her out at Geldeston. I was told by royalls yesterday that some of white moths parts was put on sundog for some reason or another. But im just happy to of found a little out if nothing at all. Yes there was tones of wherrys back then I for one feel very lucky indeed that my family had something to do with her its been amazing to not only find out about her and a little bit about my grandad. 

Thank you for all your help and information you have given me!

[woodwose]

There is a picture taken aboard Sundog on this link. http://www.ludhamarchive.org.uk/bdmcwher.htm

I have other pictures in the Chris Boardman collection. (see attached for example)

Nigel (Ludham Community Archive Group)

[Laurabassam86]

Oh WOW thank you would love to see more pictures. 

Thank You.

[woodwose]

I don't really have much extra information about these photographs. They are scans I made of colour slides taken by Chris Boardman (of How Hill). The only other information is that Chris has written "Sundog 1960" on them. If you look at the photograph on the Ludham Archive website (follow the link), you can see that the wherry has a counter stern. So I think we can be sure that this is Sundog and it was mobile and sailing in 1960 when Chris made a trip on her. The picture I posted also says "Wroxham" on it so we know that's where it was taken. There is another in the same series with St Benet's Abbey in the background.

I attach another picture showing people in deckchairs on the stern. There are no pictures of the complete boat.

I don't know who any of the people are in the pictures. One of the ladies might be Chris' wife, Elaine, but I am not very sure as she looks a bit too young here.

Sorry, that's all I know but I am glad you liked the pictures. So far as I know, these are unpublished (until now).

Best wishes

Nigel (Ludham Community Archive Group)

[LizG]

This is one for Jamie Campbell if someone could alert him to the forum?

[Laurabassam86]

This is 1 of the pictures painted of sundog in the late 60's when my mum lived aboard her. Each of my uncles and aunt all got a painting done of her so they are all slightly different. We have a few photographs of her but not many. It's fab finding all the information I have about her so far. 

[Reverie3]

Hi, as Clive says, Mallie was the last owner of Sundog. He intended to restore and live on her. Two cranes were used to lift her onto a bank at Geldeston. Unfortunately she needed far more work than one person could give her and she was broken up. Mallie did try and get funding from local sources but with no success. A few months ago I scanned some of his pictures of Sundog and will try and find them. She was a beautiful clinker built counter sterned wherry, and big at sixty foot.

 Mat

[Reverie3]

Found some images,  Mat

 

 

[FairTmiddlin]

Sundog? straightened

[Laurabassam86]

These are amazing pictures thank you mat for sharing them. Will mean alot to my family 

[Laurabassam86]

On 11/17/2015, 10:34:00, C.Ricko said:

Mally K who lives on a boat at Wayford broke sundog at Geldeston, he also lived on her.. 

I bought Broadsventure off him, he saved my boat off the fire. 

 

Sorry did someone say Mallie was still alive ? 

[woodwose]

Here is a press cutting from the EDP in 1971 with information about the ownership and sale of Sundog. I hope this is readable on the Forum. If it is hard to read, please PM for a better copy..

By the way, the pictures I posted earlier are very blue. This is because the colours in the original slides have faded unevenly. It could be corrected but it is a lot of effort.

I hope this is of interest.

Nigel

[Laurabassam86]

Thank you far share it... shame it doesn't say good things about my grandad but has also filled in some gaps about white moth too. 

Laura

[Vaughan]

Laura,

Sorry I am late replying but I have only just seen this thread. 

The last two photos are Sundog but the others are not - they are much bigger and she was only a "25 tonner". I knew her when she was a houseboat in Thorpe in the 50's and 60's, moored on the island on the garden frontage of Guild House, which is the large white house on the main rd about half way between the Buck and the Town House.

She was unique in being half pleasure wherry and half wherry yacht - a wherry with a counter stern.

I am most interested in the large shackle seen on the stem, at the waterline. This was for attaching a slipping keel, and means she was built as a "north river" wherry. She could have got up the Dilham canal, or up the Bure to Aylsham, leaving the keel moored to the bank, or towing it behind.

What a shame she, like so many, has gone now.

[Vaughan]

Sorry, when I said "the last two photos" I didn't realise there was another page to this thread!

[JennyMorgan]

Don't know why this box has popped up but it has & I can't get rid of it, sorry.

[JennyMorgan]

It's doing it again, mystery!

Vaughan, are slipping keels unique to the North Rivers? I ask that because I always believed that Albion was fitted with one and she was built for the Bungay Navigation, or so I believe. Don't know if any other South River boats had slipping keels so as well as being carvel and a Norfolk Wherry built in Suffolk, Albion might be more of a South River oddity than I realised. 

Edited December 28, 2015 by BroadScot
Cleared JM hopefully :-)

[Vaughan]

Cor, you are on a subject now! People have written books about this.....

I think it comes down to two main differences.

Wherries taking the far-reaching navigations would need a slipping keel in the shallower water, but this would ruin their sailing qualities so from then on, it was largely quanting unless the wind was free. It was also too narrow for tacking. Slipping keels were never taken out of the water as if they dried out they would warp, and would not fit any more. So they were left moored to the bank at the first lock, or sometimes towed behind. I have always understood that almost all wherries had a slipping keel as they needed to remove them when they were "slipped" for maintenance. A great description of the handling of a slipping keel can be found in "Black Sailed Traders". One has to remember that wherries and keels were derived from Viking trading ships (not Longships) which were a basic square rigged clinker barge. So the wherry's gaff sail needed a keel, which was an "extra" to the basic hull shape.

The second difference was "north" and "south". Wherries were not classed by length or breadth but by tonnage capacity. So a south river wherry like Albion was a 40 tonner. In other words, she could actually carry her own weight in cargo. Quite a design achievement! The big ones traded on the south river as most of the big cargoes were there and, of course, the river gave them more room to sail in. We sometimes forget that the ones that traded on the northern rivers were much smaller ; only 15 to 20 tons, so that they could sail on the much more confined waters. There are none of these left now and Sundog was perhaps the last example.

So the way we treat the Albion now is understandable but by no means fair to her. She was not designed for messing about on the Thurne. She should be allowed to run before the wind on the Yare. But of course, as a wonderful piece of history, then the northern Broads is where she must be seen. When I knew her, the slipping keel had been made permanent and she was hauled out on a cradle in Lowestoft for repairs but I understand that Maynard has now actually re-fitted a slipping keel to her, so that they can now plan to make a slipway at Womack and haul her out there. That would be good news!