Fire Points and the BSC

[JanetAnne]

Just glancing around ebay - well it passes the time - and came across this. In the description it clearly states 'will soon be part of the BSS'

Now I'm certainly not here to argue the merit of the device and am obviously interested in it or I wouldn't be looking etc etc, BUT, how can a manufacturer be aware of any such impending changes to the BSS that they can use the information in such a way?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/301625827960?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l5999&_trkparms=gh1g%3DI301625827960.N36.S2.R2.TR12

[Speleologist]

I've no idea where the information came from or whether it's reliable, but I'm amazed that it's not part of the BSS already. The ability to empty an extinguisher into an engine compartment without opening it up should be regarded as essential. The exceptions might be where you had a fully automatic extinguisher system installed.

I do most of my sailing on offshore yachts and I've never been on a modern one that does not have a fire port. Most older yachts will have had them fitted retrospectively.

As well as fitting it you need a suitable class of extinguisher conveniently placed.

[JawsOrca]

I think our BSC examiner mentioned it to us when we was examined this year, I'm sure he said it's coming in the next update which is January?! 

Certainly a good idea although I think our bay is a bit big for it to really work overly well.  Although ours is all rated to withstand a fire for 3 minutes which is plenty of time to escape  

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Alan,

Just fit a auto extinguisher in your engine bay and forget about it for five years.

You do not have to fit a full system, all that is required is the extinguisher, the rest is just window dressing.

Regards

Alan

[JawsOrca]

Hi Alan,

Apparently you should never fit one of them (the powder ones) as they have been known to go off for no reason and if they go off when the engine is running you will need a new engine. The gas ones are meant to be a wiser choice although I'm sure I read somewhere that they will vent out if you have vents or be sucked through the engine so there's no real solution on small boats.. Just pray you never needs (certainly as despite the BSC tick there is no way our engine bay is fireproof for 3 mins the floor would have melted long before that).

[BroadScot]

Fire Extinguishers!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! 

A bucket of Sand do fine! 

Iain

[ranworthbreeze]

4 hours ago, JawsOrca said:

Hi Alan,

Apparently you should never fit one of them (the powder ones) as they have been known to go off for no reason and if they go off when the engine is running you will need a new engine. The gas ones are meant to be a wiser choice although I'm sure I read somewhere that they will vent out if you have vents or be sucked through the engine so there's no real solution on small boats.. Just pray you never needs (certainly as despite the BSC tick there is no way our engine bay is fireproof for 3 mins the floor would have melted long before that).

Hi Alan,

We have had our auto extinguisher aboard Ranworth Breeze since season start 2013. 

I fitted the powder type because the gas option was no longer available in this county, we did have a auto gas extinguisher fitted on the boat but this was removed from the boat by the previous management when the boat stopped going to sea in 2007, maybe to allow the easy fitting of the heating system at about the same time.

All the owners thought the auto extinguisher was still there until I asked someone to check the use by date, the extinguisher needless to say was missing.

It is better to have to have work done on the engine rather than a burnt out boat. No doubt you will have seen pictures of new boats that have burnt out and sunk during sea trials. One story I saw the new owner was none to pleased that his pride and joy was lost at sea because a auto extinguisher had not been fitted.

Iain,

A number of years ago during an elf & safety inspection at our local Community Center the inspector wanted to know why there was no sand in the fire bucket back stage. We had to point out that the fire bucket in question (old stock that used to be in the building) was in fact a prop used on a set for our production of Big Bad Mouse. It was even hard to get good staff on the local authorities even back then.

Regards

Alan

[RayandCarole]

5 hours ago, JawsOrca said:

Hi Alan,

Apparently you should never fit one of them (the powder ones) as they have been known to go off for no reason and if they go off when the engine is running you will need a new engine. The gas ones are meant to be a wiser choice although I'm sure I read somewhere that they will vent out if you have vents or be sucked through the engine so there's no real solution on small boats.. Just pray you never needs (certainly as despite the BSC tick there is no way our engine bay is fireproof for 3 mins the floor would have melted long before that).

Agree with the above regarding powder and gas extinguishers, would seem that the fire point is probably the best option as long as you have a suitable portable powder extinguisher close by, then you would only deploy the powder if you had a real fire when engine damage would be the least of your worries, this is the option we are taking on Tangara ( when I get the time to fit it)

Of course thats as long as long as your insurance does not require a fixed automatic system to be fitted.

Ray

[Guest]

6 hours ago, ranworthbreeze said:

.......I fitted the powder type because the gas option was no longer available in this county,........

.....It is better to have to have work done on the engine rather than a burnt out boat........

The subject of auto fire extinguishers in engine bays can be very confusing, with lots of conflicting advice and information.

When Halon was banned, a lot of people thought that BCF powder was the only option then, including far too many Chandlers, who seem to mainly stock BCF autos.

There was however, a perfectly acceptable and permitted gas replacement, FE36.

When I bought my boat, I immediately replaced the BCF auto with a "Fireblitz" FE36, bolted to the inside top of the engine bay hatch. They need to be angled downwards, so I made up the alloy bracket shown.

It's all very well saying that a ruined engine from a dry powder extinguisher is better than a burnt out boat, but an auto extinguisher can also trigger by accident, without there actually being a fire. A completely ruined engine then is not an acceptable risk when an FE36 avoids the risk altogether. As long as the extinguisher(s) is/are (comfortably) adequate for the size of engine bay, then the consensus is that any fire will be swamped, even in a normally vented bay.

The YBW forums have had many discussions on this, like this one  http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?342435-Fire-extinguishers

[JawsOrca]

Strowager, Interesting thread as usual I read somewhere else that a gas one is pointless if the engine is running to as the engine will just suck the gas through, does that sounds likely. The best advise I saw was that you have a means to manually trigger it (Maybe connected to a smoke alarm). 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JawsOrca said:

Strowager, Interesting thread as usual I read somewhere else that a gas one is pointless if the engine is running to as the engine will just suck the gas through, does that sounds likely. The best advise I saw was that you have a means to manually trigger it (Maybe connected to a smoke alarm). 

Yes, a very interesting subject Alan, and  a much more important decision than most boat owners possibly realise.

I'd much rather that my engine "sucked in" FE gas than the fine dust of a dry powder extinguisher that would irreparably damage all of the bores and pistons if it should go off by accident, (to say nothing of the sudden permanent loss of propulsion, maybe at Sea.)

My reading of the information on the subject leads me to believe that the sudden discharge of an FE gas extinguisher in a compact engine compartment would snuff most fires instantly, even though it would gradually disperse by ventilation.

You raise an interesting point, whether a running engine would suck the gas too quickly out of the boat. I guess it would depend on engine revs and whether it's a diesel or a petrol.

Either way, I would be very nervous having an auto dry powder fire extinguisher hanging over my engine when I can have an FE gas one instead.

[quo vadis]

A diesel or petrol engine needs air to run if it was sucking this FE gas it would stop almost instantly 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, quo vadis said:

A diesel or petrol engine needs air to run if it was sucking this FE gas it would stop almost instantly 

Excellent !

So much better than "dry powdered" air grinding the bores to oblivion after a few revs......

[johnb]

One can only hope that if these do become compulsary the above is taken into consideration, in order that they do not specify unsuitable equipment.

[teadaemon]

I may be 5 months late, but I've just spotted this and couldn't let it pass without comment.

Statements like the one from that seller are the reason why if you want to know anything about the BSS, you should check the BSS website, ask the BSS office, or at a pinch ask a BSS examiner (although with a lot of questions the best answer they could give to you would be "I don't know, I'll have to check with the BSS office and get back to you").

As far as I'm aware, the fitting of fire extinguisher access ports to engine bays is not even being discussed at the moment as a check for either private or non-private boats. The seller has pulled that bit of information straight out of their own backside.

On a related point, if you're going to fit one and intend to use a carbon dioxide or halon-replacement gaseous extinguisher, then you also need to fit some means of remotely closing any engine bay vents, as otherwise the gas will escape through those and although a fire could have been initially extinguished, it could easily reignite when exposed to air once more.

Incidentally, carbon dioxide fire extinguishers, or fixed engine bay extinguishers of any type do not count towards the minimum number or combined rating of fire extinguishers required in part 6 of the BSS, so if you do want to have either, they're in addition to, not instead of, the BSS requirements.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, teadaemon said:

As far as I'm aware, the fitting of fire extinguisher access ports to engine bays is not even being discussed at the moment as a check for either private or non-private boats. The seller has pulled that bit of information straight out of their own backside.

Although they're not mentioned in the BSS guide, remote access ports for fire extinguishers are still a damn good safety feature.

Cheap and easy to fit, they have no downside and could greatly assist in putting out an engine bay fire in most Broads sized cabin boats.

Being able to direct a portable extinguisher into an engine bay fire without opening the large hatchway, (often within the upholstered accommodation space),  and flooding the compartment with unlimited fresh oxygen could easily prevent the fire spreading.

There are plenty of ready-made fire ports from reputable marine equipment suppliers.

"Fire Extinguisher Ports

Fire ports (also known as fire-suppression ports or fire extinguisher ports) are an important part of safety equipment which should be installed on your boat when a fixed fire extinguisher system is not in place or where space is limited. In the event of a fire, the small port can be opened to allow a fire extinguisher to be used to access the engine space or any other enclosed area which may be affected.

Installing a fire port is an inexpensive way of preventing a fire from spreading, and most importantly it aids fighting the fire by avoiding adding additional oxygen which fuels the fire and could cause it to spread. Should you be unlucky enough to have a fire break out on board your boat, the fire port can first be used to visually inspect the enclosed area and prevent the contents of the fire extinguisher from dissipating to other areas of the boat rather than where it is needed."

from:

http://www.asap-supplies.com/deck-fittings-and-hardware/fireports

 

[JawsOrca]

Problem is though strowager, the little plastic flaps aren't fireproof for 3 hours (Or whatever the stupid BSC rules are)...

Personally I have no confidence with the BSC, a view which is echoed by two very experienced marine surveyors who I know.. 

[teadaemon]

4 minutes ago, Strowager said:

Although they're not mentioned in the BSS guide, remote access ports for fire extinguishers are still a damn good safety feature.

Cheap and easy to fit, they have no downside and could greatly assist in putting out an engine bay fire in most Broads sized cabin boats.

Being able to direct a portable extinguisher into an engine bay fire without opening the large hatchway, (often within the upholstered accommodation space),  and flooding the compartment with unlimited fresh oxygen could easily prevent the fire spreading.

There are plenty of ready-made fire ports from reputable marine equipment suppliers.

"Fire Extinguisher Ports

Fire ports (also known as fire-suppression ports or fire extinguisher ports) are an important part of safety equipment which should be installed on your boat when a fixed fire extinguisher system is not in place or where space is limited. In the event of a fire, the small port can be opened to allow a fire extinguisher to be used to access the engine space or any other enclosed area which may be affected.

Installing a fire port is an inexpensive way of preventing a fire from spreading, and most importantly it aids fighting the fire by avoiding adding additional oxygen which fuels the fire and could cause it to spread. Should you be unlucky enough to have a fire break out on board your boat, the fire port can first be used to visually inspect the enclosed area and prevent the contents of the fire extinguisher from dissipating to other areas of the boat rather than where it is needed."

from:

http://www.asap-supplies.com/deck-fittings-and-hardware/fireports

 

I'm well aware of what they are and how they're used, but they're not part of the BSS and at the moment there's not even the slightest discussion of whether they might be in the future.

They have their place in coastal and off-shore boats, where the alternative to fighting a fire is to evacuate to a liferaft, which is why they (or fired engine bay extinguishers) are required for some classes of MCA coding for small commercial vessels. In the case of a boat on inland waterways, if I suspected an engine fire in a boat I was on, I'd get to the bank, get everyone off the boat, and call the fire brigade. If I did have one of these ports, I certainly wouldn't be following the suggestion to open it and attempt to look through it to see if there was a fire - if I'm opening it then it's to let an extinguisher off through it and then maybe take a look later, if the fire's definitely out and everything has had time to cool down.

[teadaemon]

2 minutes ago, JawsOrca said:

Problem is though strowager, the little plastic flaps aren't fireproof for 3 hours (Or whatever the stupid BSC rules are)...

Personally I have no confidence with the BSC, a view which is echoed by two very experienced marine surveyors who I know.. 

The standard used for the BSS, which is based on the relevant ISO standards, is 2 minutes at 600 degrees C. It's only ever intended to contain the fire for long enough that you can evacuate the boat.

The BSS is, and has always been, the bare minimum standard necessary for the relevant navigation authority to be satisfied that they have discharged their duty of care to other users of the waterways. It does not, has never, and does not claim to certify that any vessel is 'safe'. Mind you, neither does a survey, MCA coding, or any other form of inspection or testing of boats.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, teadaemon said:

........They have their place in coastal and off-shore boats, where the alternative to fighting a fire is to evacuate to a liferaft, which is why they (or fired engine bay extinguishers) are required for some classes of MCA coding for small commercial vessels. In the case of a boat on inland waterways, if I suspected an engine fire in a boat I was on, I'd get to the bank, get everyone off the boat, and call the fire brigade.........

The Broads may be inland waterways TD, but the majority of the 120 cruising miles has very limited nearby (hard) bank access, and for the same reason fire brigade response times would generally be way too late to save any boat depending solely on their arrival.

I've already agreed that they are not mentioned in the BSS, ( though they are required in the USA for the A.B.Y.C (American Boat and Yacht Council).

I still say they have no downside, and could easily avert a disastrous situation in certain circumstances, especially in Broads type fully enclosed cabin craft.

They are so cheap and easy to fit that I always put them in my boats, after being made aware of them by my first BSS examiner, 12 years ago. In his professional opinion, he thought they were a good safety feature.

[teadaemon]

Just now, Strowager said:

The Broads may be inland waterways TD, but the majority of the 120 cruising miles has very limited nearby (hard) bank access, and for the same reason fire brigade response times would generally be way too late to save any boat depending solely on their arrival.

I've already agreed that they are not mentioned in the BSS, ( though they are required in the USA for the A.B.Y.C (American Boat and Yacht Council).

I still say they have no downside, and could easily avert a disastrous situation in certain circumstances, especially in Broads type fully enclosed cabin craft.

If the boat's on fire, then bluntly anywhere less than knee deep in water/mud will do as a place to evacuate to, a piled bank is nice, but not essential.

I don't expect calling the fire brigade will result in the boat being saved. If a boat catches fire, then making sure everyone on board gets off safely is the main priority, followed by (if possible) trying to stop the fire spreading to other boats or anything else nearby. If the boat is repairable afterwards that's good, but it's not really important. (That's what insurance is for.)

I'd suggest that installing one of these ports should be a fair way further down a boat owner's priority list than making sure that their fuel and electrical installations are up to standard, keeping the engine bay clean and free from oil or grease, and regularly inspecting the engine bay before they set off every morning. Preventing a fire from starting in the first place is far more effective than any method of dealing with it once it's started.

[Guest]

All good safety points TD, but something of a tangent to fire extinguisher access ports, and I still feel that my BSS examiner's (and surveyor's) professional advice from 12 years ago was informed and well worth taking.

Naturally, the fitting of a £10 fire extinguisher access port should not be at the expense of any other mandatory BSS safety requirements or commonsense safety practice.

Unless anyone can give me a genuine specific disadvantage about them, I will continue to fit them in all of my boats, and advise others to do the same.

[Vaughan]

On inland waterways in France (and I think most countries of eastern Europe) all boats with an inboard engine are built to EC maritime regulations, Category D. Most large hire boats are built to Cat C, so that they can also be sold privately as sea boats. A good example of this would be Ranworthbreeze.

These regs include an engine compartment fire port. They also have a comprehensive set of installation instructions for electrics, both AC and DC, and including shore power fittings.

There have never been any specific inland waterway regs in France.

The only thing they don't require, bizarrely, is a pump-out toilet!

 

[teadaemon]

21 hours ago, Strowager said:

All good safety points TD, but something of a tangent to fire extinguisher access ports, and I still feel that my BSS examiner's (and surveyor's) professional advice from 12 years ago was informed and well worth taking.

Naturally, the fitting of a £10 fire extinguisher access port should not be at the expense of any other mandatory BSS safety requirements or commonsense safety practice.

Unless anyone can give me a genuine specific disadvantage about them, I will continue to fit them in all of my boats, and advise others to do the same.

I'm not saying that they're a bad idea, just that they're not a requirement for the BSS, and that there are other things that are probably more important if you want to avoid a fire on board (the number 1 cause of which is operator error in one form or another).

6 hours ago, Vaughan said:

On inland waterways in France (and I think most countries of eastern Europe) all boats with an inboard engine are built to EC maritime regulations, Category D. Most large hire boats are built to Cat C, so that they can also be sold privately as sea boats. A good example of this would be Ranworthbreeze.

These regs include an engine compartment fire port. They also have a comprehensive set of installation instructions for electrics, both AC and DC, and including shore power fittings.

There have never been any specific inland waterway regs in France.

The only thing they don't require, bizarrely, is a pump-out toilet!

 

All leisure vessels over about 8 feet LOA new to the market within the EU (including this country) since 1998 have been required to adhere to the Recreational Craft Directive. I don't have the relevant ISO standard for fire protection to hand (since it's about £160 and I don't do RCD compliance work), but I've surveyed plenty of vessels that are built to RCD cat D and C, and have yet to come across one with a fire extinguisher port (although several have had fixed engine bay extinguishers). Therefore I'd suggest that while one may be required in certain circumstances, and may be one route to compliance with the standard, they're certainly not required for all vessels. If they're common on French hire boats then it could be that the builder fits them as standard, the hire operators want them fitted as standard, or possibly that local insurers require them.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, teadaemon said:

I'm not saying that they're a bad idea, just that they're not a requirement for the BSS, and that there are other things that are probably more important if you want to avoid a fire on board

.....and I also keep agreeing with you that  they're not a requirement of the BSS, and that they're a good idea, (not a bad one), so we agree TD.

As the other more important fire precautions are already mandatory in the BSS , they're unlikely to be skimped by anyone conscientious enough to fit a fire extinguisher port voluntarily.