mains The Mains Electrical Thread

[TheQ]

Jackpot!!!

just found what I was looking for, a bit expensive £169, But a battery charger that can take 50V DC in and charge a 12 V battery. http://www.bushbatteries.co.uk/campervan-boat-electrics/contents/en-uk/d82_ring-rscdc30-microprocessor-split-charge.html

"Ring Automotive" DC SmartChargerNew Lower Price!!

Takes the energy from a vehicle's main battery (engine running) and converts it into multi-stage output for charging an auxiliary battery. Input voltage (starter battery bank) can be between 12v - 50v and output is 12 volts to charge a 12v leisure / auxiliary battery bank.

Compensates for high voltage or a drop in voltage to maximise charge to auxiliary battery. Programmable for most battery types. 3-Stage smart charge output for optimal battery performance. Suitable for battery banks from 40-500Ah.

Will work with smart alternators to deliver accurate charging voltage. Low battery shut off to protect main battery. Sleep mode to eliminate battery drain.

Solar panel input with MPPT feature for charging at rest. Applications include utility vehicles, vans, motorhomes, caravans and boats.

Manufacturer:	Ring Automotive
Model #:	RSCDC30
Charge rate:	30amps
Voltage input:	12v - 50v
Voltage output:	12v
Dimensions (mm):	L 236mm x W 203mm x H 87mm
Warranty	1 year
Multi-stage charging:	Yes
Instructions included:	Yes
Installation difficulty rating:

[BroadScot]

RING use to sell a lot of their gear with CEF City Electrical Factors. Think these days they sell to the public as well as the trade.

Iain

[Vaughan]

When I left Crown I worked for a while for a different company, enjoying myself as a mechanic until I retired a couple of years later.

I was servicing a boat one Saturday when I noticed I was getting a "tingle" off the engine. To the connoisseur of these things there is a subtle difference between DC or AC, as it climbs up your arm. An acquired taste. I later noticed I was also getting it off the steering wheel.

The boat was plugged in the bank, so I went to the manager and he called in an electrical contractor, to test the boat's wiring. They discovered that the insulation of the windings in the battery charger had partly broken down and it was leaking a bit of current through the DC charging circuit. Apparently I had been getting about 50 volts instead of the full 220. He then also discovered that the shore power cable had been purchased cheap as a job lot from a DIY company and was a twin wire cable with no earth, although the EC plugs on the ends were correct.

This is one of the reasons that I am banging on about the need for an earth. If the insulation in that charger had broken down fully instead of just partially, i might not be taking part in this debate. And the boat was moored, on the water. So any earth through the hull was obviously not a protection in my case.

[TheQ]

9 minutes ago, BroadScot said:

RING use to sell a lot of their gear with CEF City Electrical Factors. Think these days they sell to the public as well as the trade.

Iain

Yep, I bought one of their chargers from Screwfix some years ago, I do like it a lot. They are available on the site of the very strong women and electronic site of the concave coastline as well.

 Though, If thats the way I go, then the site I linked to, has all the fittings which would make it convienent. There is a lot of interesting equipement on that site that could be used on boats..

 Here's another thing I came across while reseaching info, for the questions on this thread,

One site had a warning NOT to leave those 3 light reverse polarity detectors plugged in, they have enough leakage current to affect the operation of RCDs and the like!!

 So I think I'll have to add "Press to test Switch" to my shore power control panel.  A double push to make should do it.

 

[BroadScot]

6 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

I was getting a "tingle" 

Bet you have never had a  "rattle" off a bunch of bananas Vaughan   I live to tell the tale lol. Suffice to say it was caused by stupidity by a young lad working in the grocers store.

I put my neon tester on the bunch of bananas, the tester lit up! Says I to myself, sounds like an earth leakage somewhere ! Tried all the usual suspects,no joy. So asked had any appliance broken down recently. Yes replied the young lad, and I repaired it says he. So I opened the plug top, and to my horror it was a piece of silver fag paper wrapped arround the cartridge fuse and was shorting to earth! New fuse fitted, problem.solved.

The reason I have written this, it just goes to show how fickle electricity can be In the wrong hands !

Iain

[TheQ]

I remember talking to someone about a chipshop that had been divided up, after a couple of years customers started feeling tingling as they leaned against a wall, over time this was getting worse and eventually an investigation was carried out.

As part of the dividing of the shop a light switch pattress  (back box) had been plastered over. But left connected to the mains, as the high humidity of the chipshop soaked into the wall the wall was becoming more and more live.

( i must assume that the power was off, when the wall was pastered and dried out orginally)

[BroadScot]

Plasterers are bl...y experts at covering over sunk metal conduit boxes !!! Some would not plaster over the conduit unless the wraggle had been filled in completely with cement !

Iain

[ranworthbreeze]

There are times when Plastering is not a trade but a disease, Way back in the day we did loads of work in the sticks using Pyro, we had plasters putting their batons on metal clad consumer units or cutting the tails off right up to the walls. Needless to say the air was blue from us and the owners.

Regards

Alan

[BroadScot]

2 minutes ago, ranworthbreeze said:

There are times when Plastering is not a trade but a disease, Way back in the day we did loads of work in the sticks using Pyro, we had plasters putting their batons on metal clad consumer units or cutting the tails off right up to the walls. Needless to say the air was blue from us and the owners.

Regards

Alan

Been there Alan, got the T Shirt ! Grrrrrrr!!!!!

[Jim]

Is it acceptable to install a shaver socket in the shower room on our Falcon?  I'm not sure how a boat safety examiner would view this. We had shore power, sockets and auto battery charger fitted by Ferry Marina in 2012. We are also thinking about adding a small microwave oven on board but currently have no inverter fitted.  Could anyone recommend the correct size unit we would need to run a microwave?

    

[ranworthbreeze]

1 minute ago, Jim said:

Is it acceptable to install a shaver socket in the shower room on our Falcon?  I'm not sure how a boat safety examiner would view this.  

Hi Jim,

This seems to be standard practice, we have one fitted in both of Ranworth Breeze's bathrooms. 

Fit them as high as possible and make sure they are the correct double wound shaver outlets.

Regards

Alan

[BroadScot]

2 minutes ago, Jim said:

Is it acceptable to install a shaver socket in the shower room on our Falcon?  I'm not sure how a boat safety examiner would view this.  

Hi Jim,

They are in many hire boats  in the shower room, but hidden away from water or put above the shower head.

I would assume its the same for private craft.

Iain

 

[Jim]

Thanks Alan and Broad Scot.  I remember Ranworth Breeze as she used to moor close to us in Ferry

[ranworthbreeze]

Hi Jim, 

I guess wellies are still part of your boat kit if you are still moored at the Ferry Marina, getting to the boat could be a trial at times, we moved to Tingdene in 2007. 

Regards

Alan

[Jim]

Much improved now all the quayheadings are finished. It was a quagmire while they were doing the work which was unavoidable but all was finished by May 2009. 

[BroadScot]

Just had this e-mail from a very good boating source, regarding earthing.

Hi Iain 

Sorry for delay in replying. 

As regards earthing, our boats had an earthing plate imbedded on either side of the keel, these were bonded to a busbar in the main switch board in the after cabin, all the earthing for the power circuits onboard were in turn bonded to this. 

Hope this is of some help to you. 

Iain

[TheQ]

Yep that useful sounds like option 1 to me.

[Viking23]

Some people in the water around boats connected to shore power can be at great risk should there be an earth fault.

For example, if the shore power earth is lost, either through a faulty supply post, faulty cable or poor corroded connector within the boat, and an earth fault occurs on the boat, live to boat "ground" then any metal work in the water will try to find an earth through the water. This has been a major cause of fatalities in the US.

So do we consider bonding anything metal to each other, sink, fridge, cooker, water heater, gas pipes etc and bonding them to ships earth?

Consider this, birds can sit on high voltage transmission lines that run between pylons, often the voltages can be 400kv, they are quite happy, are not electrocuted, because there is no path for any current to earth.

Similarly you may be on a boat, and due to an earth fault you and the crew are connected to live, 240 volts, you may not feel it, not be aware of the danger, but if you help someone on board who has damp shoes, or are in the water, then they could complete the circuit, especially if you grab hold of a steering wheel or hand rail.

Which then begs the question, if all metal work is unbonded, is there less of a shock risk?

There are more and more electric hook ups on the broads, more unprotected inverters, often fitted by complete amateurs, who don't know their earth from their elbow.

There are no electrical inspections, no earth leakage tests or earth continuity done, the BSS can only do a visual inspection, they don't check if your hook up lead has three wires connected, or if they are wired correctly. The only check is... is there any way that connector plug pins could be live if connected incorectly. There is no requirement to be hooked up to shore power during the inspection, in fact I believe that clients are asked to disconnect from any shore power prior to the test.

Have we stumbled on something with the potential to be as dangerous as Carbon monoxide?

It has been said before, electricity is also another silent killer.

Then we have earth leakage and electolytic or galvanic corrosion, leave your shore power on over the winter, and your anodes might be eaten away, then your stern gear, prop, maybe your sea cocks, now should those  be bonded? Did you know, if your boat is on shore power and earthed but had plenty of anodes, yet the boat next to you is also on shore power but no effective anodes, then the next boat will share your anodes as you have a common earth. So now consider a galvanic isolator for the earth. Another topic that has been covered before, but under the circumstances worth mentioning, if you are considering any form of earth bonding.

Note, if you are in salty or brackish water, even in Horsey Mere, the effects of galvanic cortosion are even greater.

Richard

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, Viking23 said:

Have we stumbled on something with the potential to be as dangerous as Carbon monoxide?

As someone who could have been killed by this problem, I would say that we have.

[Bound2Please]

2 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

As someone who could have been killed by this problem, I would say that we have.

I feel this is far far more of a real time problem than CO, as I have said before

Charlie

[Poppy]

8 minutes ago, Bound2Please said:

I feel this is far far more of a real time problem than CO, as I have said before

Charlie

I couldn't agree more Charlie!  I have written to the BSS people and asked why some time back, perhaps a couple of years ago. I got a wishy washy reply along the lines of 'we are looking at this' ! Well, they are taking a very long time to act.

Perhaps a few more questions of them on this topic here http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us/  

would not come amiss!

[Bound2Please]

4 minutes ago, Poppy said:

I couldn't agree more Charlie!  I have written to the BSS people and asked why some time back, perhaps a couple of years ago. I got a wishy washy reply along the lines of 'we are looking at this' ! Well, they are taking a very long time to act.

Perhaps a few more questions of them on this topic here http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us/  

would not come amiss!

Will be doing so Pops

Charlie

[TheQ]

Everything is a question of risk, And actually there are laws which do cover this, since You are responsible should there be an accident.

Now, there is no law that anything needs P.A.T. testing (yes I know it's not actually called that anymore) anywhere, only that it is the responsibility of the owner and user of any Electrical equipment for it to be safe.

 The regulations on Electrical installations fixed and portable are there,  But no one I've ever heard of, has their electric lawn mower or kettle checked at home ( there is no specific requirement to do so, but you are still responsible for your equipment should family or visitor get injured), and I would bet there are many more accidents with them, than electricity on the water.

 Now I P.A.T. a couple of clubs ( model railway and Sailing) I belong to, I also do my own mains leads and Equipment. But I would say It's likely that my boat will probably be the only Non hire boat to be checked in this way.

 The Problem of whether to earth or not earth all metal equipment on board is an interesting one. Do you just use Live and Neutral with no earth? This actually seems to be the way the world is going with more and more equipment having no earth and so relying on "double insulation". It is something I can see the merits of both ways.

Since an RCD does not need earth to work, it just looks at the Live and Neutral and looks for an imbalance (because the extra power is going through YOU). Most homes 99% of the time are protected by the RCD and not the earth. The Earth is just for that exceedlingly rare occurance on something going short to the metal case. How many mains operated metal cased Items are there these days? at most cooker, toaster,  microwave , fridge / freezer, dish  and clothes washers. How many have you ever heard of them going short to metalwork? (I know Beko equipment keeps catching fire but thats not Short to metalwork)

I do think that ALL of that household equipment will soon be supplied double insulated.

 As for galvanic isolation, it's your boat and if you wish to risk your boat by not having an Galvanic isolator or Isolation transformer it'll be your wallet that pays...

[Poppy]

4 minutes ago, TheQ said:

As for galvanic isolation, it's your boat and if you wish to risk your boat by not having an Galvanic isolator or Isolation transformer it'll be your wallet that pays...

Tell that to a friend who moors 'somewhere in Horning' !!

His boat was launched with a full set of brand new anodes. It had to be lifted again a little over a month later, and was staggered to find that they had all gone!!  A thorough electrical inspection of his craft (12 v only, it has no 'mains' ) established that there was no fault, and that the problem lay with someone nearby! Shocking - almost literally !

[Bound2Please]

22 minutes ago, Poppy said:

Tell that to a friend who moors 'somewhere in Horning' !!

His boat was launched with a full set of brand new anodes. It had to be lifted again a little over a month later, and was staggered to find that they had all gone!!  A thorough electrical inspection of his craft (12 v only, it has no 'mains' ) established that there was no fault, and that the problem lay with someone nearby! Shocking - almost literally !

My point exactly pops

Charlie

PS nothing on Bound 2 Please is P.A.T tested...................... why because its all 12v dc the first thing i did when I bought was remove the 12v dc to 230-240 v ac inverter., and all 240v ac circuits.