Using 16 amp cables on Leccy pillars

[Gramps]

I note that this subject has been debated at length elsewhere (sometimes heatedly) but I would appreciate your input on a couple of points. Dont want any right or wrong moralising but facts.

1) If on my forthcoming holiday I take a cable with a 16 amp plug to a 4 gang socket of the 13 amp kind, would I be allowed to use it at say Beccles or the WRC for the purpose of charging mobile phone and sport cam batteries?

2) Are there any laws, regulations or prohibitions on the use of this type of cable that are widely used in the camping and leisure field.

Ron

[ExUserGone]

If the 13A end is in your boat who's going to know the difference, it's not the best or accepted way to do it but as long as you have the socket end where it's definately not going to get wet, even better one with RCD built in.

I have various adaptors for my shore power lead including a 32A plug to 16A socket for when only 32A sockets are unused, I have 13A plug to 16A socket for that is the option available, if you know about electrical safety why not, if you don't then stick to the rules that are there to protect you from your own ignorance, let common sense prevail.

I'm going to get shot down in flames on this I know but I don't care.....

[Hockham Admiral]

I wouldn't say that, Dave. Your "let common sense...." says it all.   

[ExUserGone]

I was once told by a BSS examiner about shore power, he said there are 2 types of shore power user, those that have dropped mains power tools into the river, and those that will drop mains power tools into the river....

I am still the second type (so far).

[dnks34]

I dropped an extension connected to a mains power tool into the river once, namely a power washer.  Thats what RCDs are for......isnt it?!

[Viking23]

This has been mentioned before, if you use a 32Amp connector to a 16A socket as a converter, then there must be a fuse of 16A or less within the 32A plug.

Without the fuse (or similar current limiting device) it will not meet the current IEE regulations and will be illegal as it is unsafe and dangerous.

There will be many out there that say they have used it for years without issues, it is still illegal and dangerous.

If a fault occurs on the 16A cable,  or on the boat, then the cable will act as the fuse, potential fire hazzard, before the 32Amp trip cuts the supply.

I doubt insurance companies would pay out if this was found to be the cause, and if someone was injured or worse, then you could be in court.

 

[Gramps]

Thanks for your input Viking, I have read all the posts on the other forum regarding 32 amp to 16amp converters and splitters and have no desire to revisit that debate. That is why my OP was more specific.

Ron

[dnks34]

Would boats with shore power that has been properly installed not have an onboard trip suitable for the 16amp supply which would also then protect from problems with using a 32amp supply? 

[kfurbank]

Gramps,

To answer your specific points,

1. I don't see why not, providing the cable is being used as designed. In other words if the 4 gang socket is waterproof then it could be placed outside the boat, if not then it needs to be placed inside the boat. I'm guessing most of the camping variety are designed to be placed inside a tent. If you do use it outside, just be aware that the chargers for most phones, laptops etc. are not waterproof and generally come in Black plastic cases and therefore very likely to absorb any heat from the sun (as if ) and overheat. Even if used in doors it would be good to ensure that the 4 gang socket and any chargers plugged into it are not left on a window sill in direct sunlight for the same reason.

It's worth mentioning that most of the charging posts are provided by the BA, but the two places you specifically mentioned are not managed or maintained by the BA. Beccles is managed by Sentinel Leisure on behalf of Waveney Council and The WRC manage and maintain their own posts. The WRC has quite a few camping pitches and are probably the least likely to have an issue with the type of device you are intending  use. The two places in question do not use the £1 electric cards used for the BA posts and instead make a fixed fee charge for usage. At Beccles and I believe Oulton Broad there is a fixed fee of £3.50 overnight, which is likely to make charging a phone very expensive. You may be better off taking the phone and charger into a friendly pub and asking if they could charge it for you. Even at BA posts you will not use anywhere near the £1 if only charging small electronic devices.

2. None that I'm aware off. Just make sure it is used as per the instructions.

 

Dnks34,

To answer your query, boats that have had shore power properly installed will have a suitable trip for protecting the devices on board when used with ANY shore power source. The important thing to remember is that the trip protects any devices, cables or fittings that come after the trip, NOT before it. If using a 32A to 16A convertor between the shore power socket and the boat, then this convertor and cable needs to be adequately protected with a 16A fuse at the 32A end before any devices or cable designed to carry a maximum of 16A. There are regulations to cover that.

Edited August 28, 2015 by kfurbank

[Viking23]

Would boats with shore power that has been properly installed not have an onboard trip suitable for the 16amp supply which would also then protect from problems with using a 32amp supply? 

kfurbank had answered that question well.

As I said in my earlier post, the 16 Amp fuse in the 32 Amp plug protects the 16 Amp cable to the boat. The blue connector often fitted on the boat is only rated 16 Amps.

It is only after the power has entered the boat at the "consumer unit" that    items are protected with the lower ratings of the installed circuit breakers.

From the point of view of safety, I will always comment on the 32-16 amp    issue.

Given time, the message will get across and we will all have safe installations. I would be interested to know if any hire companies supply these adaptors.

 

 

[deebee29]

Viking

Silverline supplied an adaptor on Elegance (although we never had to use it ) but I wouldn't doubt that it was correctly protected.

Edited August 28, 2015 by deebee29

[kfurbank]

Viking23 and myself are singing from the same hymn sheet on this one, there are others however who believe that if I cannot draw more than 16A because of the trip on the boat, doesn't that protect the cable and fittings before the trip? Well the answer is no and the regulations back that up.

I can answer that one more fully by describing the perfectly legal setup as installed on my boat. The 16A shore power connector goes to the consumer unit which has 2 x 16A trips installed. 1 16A trip feeds the ring main around the boat. The other 16A trip feeds the socket that powers the chargers and the fused spur that feeds the immersion heater. Both trips adequately protect the circuits that come after them. However I have the potential to draw 16A through both trips (32A combined) if I powered up enough devices at the same time, yet the shore power connectors and cable are only rated at 16A. However if I am plugged into a post with a 16A outlet it would trip before any damage could be sustained to the shore power cable or connectors. If I am plugged into a 32A outlet with a convertor that is not adequately protected then I might have an issue.

Before anyone suggests my installation is at fault, consider this. Most houses will have an incoming supply of 60A or 100A. A large house will feasibly have a 40A trip for the shower. A 32A trip for the electric hob and cooker. 2 x 32A trips for ring mains, one upstairs, one downstairs. Maybe a 16A feed to the garage or workshop, plus multiple 6A lighting circuits. The potential exists in most houses to attempt to draw more current than the supply into the building is capable. It is the electricity boards fuse at the point of entry to your property that protects the cable and consumer unit up to the point at which your various trips then protect the individual circuits. 

[Viking23]

That's interesting.. I would hope it is protected, as supplying a device to the general public that is illegal could have serious repetitions. 

 

Incidentally, the Broads Authority leaflet, states, the cable should be one continious length, without joins.

So... does that mean a plug socket or even an adaptor is considered a "join" ?

I might be shooting myself in the foot here.... 

But using industry standard plugs and sockets should be ok... shouldn't it?

Consider say an extension lead to extend the 16 amp cable, if the connector could end up in the water, then this would be unacceptable.

 

 

See attached under " Step1 " top right of attachment.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2015 by Viking23

[deebee29]

As I say, we never needed to use the adaptor but there was definitely one in the cupboard with the bigger plug on one end and a socket to connect to the supply cable on the other.

the control panel with all the breakers etc. wouldn't have looked out of place on the Starship Enterprise so I'm sure it is all legal and above board

[kfurbank]

Viking23,

I believe the wording on the leaflet is to stop the situation which we have all seen in the past of 3 or 4 boats all hooked up to the same outlet using a variety of splitters and connectors. This often used to happen at Loddon until they installed more posts.

[JawsOrca]

Do boats really need a 32amp supply? They are getting way too posh now!

P.s.. Always check whats left on the meter as in two weeks we never paid for leccy as there was always a ton of credit on them.. Don't forget too the BA ones (And the WRC (Don't know about others) ) take the full £1 card amount and you wont use it.. So always check before you top it with your own credit. 

[kfurbank]

Do boats really need a 32amp supply? They are getting way too posh now!

P.s.. Always check whats left on the meter as in two weeks we never paid for leccy as there was always a ton of credit on them.. Don't forget too the BA ones (And the WRC (Don't know about others) ) take the full £1 card amount and you wont use it.. So always check before you top it with your own credit. 

The posts were originally installed to promote electric boating and were meant to be for recharging electric boats. In that case 32A could well be needed for a fast charge. Even now the BA leaflet refers to electric boat charging points. In practise though they have rarely been used to recharge electric boats and are more commonly used by boaters to support their home comforts away from their home mooring.

[dnks34]

I have had a quick look round online and i cant locate any fused 32amp plugs suitable for the 32amp socket on the posts, do they even exist? 

 

[quo vadis]

Try city electrical factors 

[TheQ]

As my boat will shortly be Diesel electric, I'm going to by 32amp flexible cable, for the run to the pillar. that way if I can only get 16A for some reason I won't have the above problems.

 but my maximum load could be 10A  230V for chargers

                                                    5 A for the microwave

 

             

 

[kfurbank]

I have had a quick look round online and i cant locate any fused 32amp plugs suitable for the 32amp socket on the posts, do they even exist? 

 

Dnks34,

Therein lies the problem and why this has been such a thorny subject in the past. I haven't seen any 32A commando plugs that have a purpose built in fuse holder. I and I know a few other people have placed an inline fuse holder within the commando plug to protect the 16A components. Others haven't because they rely (wrongly) on their boat trip not allowing them to consume more than 16A. This still leaves any 16A components between the 32A commando plug and your boat trip unprotected.

[TheQ]

Something just went wrong there , That previous post wasn't meant to be sent I hadn't finished.

When the motor boat comes back from it's conversion to Diesel electric, I'll buy 32amp cable which will solve the above problems..

But I have worked out the following:

Power for Battery chargers 10A 230V

Power for Microwave 5A 230V

Power for cooker ring, 6A 230V,

Power for Fridge       1A 230V

 Power for low power electric kettle 6A

 Power for TV, Tablet computer, phone charging. 1A

 So if we are at lunchtime after a long trip, requiring battery charging I think I'll have to limit power to the galley, on a 16A supply!!! For safety I think I'll have to put just one Socket in there.

[Gramps]

 

Thanks for all the constructive replies, they are helpful. During my working life I was a time served maintenance sparky for 20 years, so know what hazards to avoid regarding electrical safety. Things have changed much since those days when I was qualified to work on up to 650 volt 3 phase. These days you need an NVQ to be able to open your tool box.

I take your points regarding cost and the minimal amount of electric we will use but believe me it is a price worth paying when you have 3 teenagers on-board as I quoted in my holiday tale last year,4 nights on Dream Gem, when the 12 volt socket was not working.

Ron

Edited August 28, 2015 by Gramps
Remove incorrect quote

[Hockham Admiral]

When the motor boat comes back from it's conversion to Diesel electric, I'll buy 32amp cable which will solve the above problems..

But I have worked out the following:

Power for Battery chargers 10A 230V

Surely not, Q? 2.3kW........   

[kfurbank]

Surely not, Q? 2.3kW........   

John,

I suspect the clue is in the diesel electric conversion. Would like to know how many and what type of battery, but I suspect quite a few. The recent review of The Barnes hybrid boat that Robin did had some hefty chargers if I recall. They were powered when needed by the onboard  diesel generator which was used just for generation. The actual drive was all electric. Mind you with that kind of load Q might need more than just one electric card and will probably not be leaving any credit behind