Wild Camping Ban

[Viking23]

So what about over night wild fishing? you often see small green tents, or shelters with an angler horizontal on a camp bed, with his rod sticking out into the river or canal, dangling his maggot. 

I doubt many will bring their own toilet facilities and take their human waste away. 

What about the Duke of Edinburgh award schemes, not quite the same challenge if they camp out with toilet and shower facilities, wifi and electricity to hand.

Then you have the army guys, who are dropped off in the middle of Dartmoor with no food, water or shelter in the middle of winter ?

 

 

[Speleologist]

This decision bears absolutely no relationship to England. IN Scotland there is a de facto right to roam oon open moors, combined with permitting ild camping. In England no such similar rights exist. All that has happened is that in the Loch Lomond National Park byelaws will prevent wild camping in a very small, mostly roadside area. There will be no restrictions elsewhere. The situation will still be much more open than anywhere in England, where there is no right to roam except on agreed access land and no right to camp anywhere. If we had a situation in England similar to Loch Lomond it would be a huge stride forward.

[JennyMorgan]

The Right to Roam in England:

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/paths-and-access/england/what-is-the-right-to-roam.aspx

[ChrisB]

Public slipway to close on Loch Lomond The Loch Lomond & The Trossachs National Park Authority has announced that it will be closing the slipway at Milarrochy Bay on Loch Lomond. Unfortunately, as this is only one of two public slipways on the 24-mile-long loch, it has caused much upset amongst local boaters, boat clubs and visitors. In an online statement the authority listed health and safety as one of the reasons, saying ‘Milarrochy Bay is increasingly popular with families and other people including swimmers and kayakers, and the risk of people launching boats from vehicles and trailers, without staff on site to supervise them, is too high’. Cost was another factor detailed, it said ‘numbers of motorised launches at Milarrochy Bay have been consistently falling over the last few years. The fee for launching powered craft comes nowhere near to covering the cost of staff. The cost of staffing at the appropriate levels to safely facilitate launches, works out to be £54 per launch, which is almost the same as the £55 launch fee boat users pay for a whole year. This is simply not best use of public money.’ The authority stated that there will no reduction in launching fees, and added ‘The cost of providing safe public launch facilities far outweighs the annual fees for boat launching.’ In a statement to a local paper, one boat club argued that the Duncan Mills Memorial Slipway was not always accessible, indeed in the past, this busy slipway in Balloch has been closed for events such as the Great Scottish Swim. The authority addressed this point and said ‘When planning any event that requires the Duncan Mills Memorial Slipway to be closed to the public, we will consider access to the loch at other locations. Decisions will be made based on the particular circumstances of the event.’ The Milarrochy Bay slipway will be closed from April 1st. The toilets, beach (pictured top) and car park will remain open to the public as normal, and boaters are permitted to beach their boats to spend the day there, if launching and returning to Duncan Mills Memorial Slipway, pictured left. P

 

Extract from March MBO online magazine, seems they have a number of issues.

[thingamybob]

It is really unfortunate that as usual a minority of people spoil it for the majority. From what I can glean from the news programs there has been incidents of vandalism by chopping wood from trees and setting fires and all sorts of rubbish etc. left after the departure of the culprits. As the saying goes, "rules are made for fools". The people who cause these rules do not care. I have had some experiences in the Lake District where two of my male friends and myself wanted to camp next to Lake Windemere on the National Trust Campsite and do some walking in the area. Because we were not a family we were rudely shoved onto what I can only describe as the yobbos pitches. NEVER AGAIN! it was hell all night with drunken yobs making a racket until the early hours of the morning. Needless to say, we were so tired next day we did not do much walking.  

[JennyMorgan]

Regarding Loch Lomond and the provision of 'safe' launching facilities. Why oh why do such 'authorities' insist on protecting people from themselves? I appreciate that there is the question of liability but, for example, Waveney District Council allows unrestricted, unsupervised use of their excellent slipway at Oulton Broad, just not a problem. So why is it an issue with one authority but not another? Speedboat racing at Oulton Broad was for decades run on a self policing basis without problem but then the Authority just had to become involved. Have things got safer? Not according to the speedboat club it hasn't! Interference for the sake of it? Regretfully it sometimes is, in my opinion. Will it happen on the Broads? 

 

[ranworthbreeze]

1 hour ago, ChrisB said:

Public slipway to close on Loch Lomond The Loch Lomond & The Trossachs National Park Authority has announced that it will be closing the slipway at Milarrochy Bay on Loch Lomond. Unfortunately, as this is only one of two public slipways on the 24-mile-long loch, it has caused much upset amongst local boaters, boat clubs and visitors. In an online statement the authority listed health and safety as one of the reasons, saying ‘Milarrochy Bay is increasingly popular with families and other people including swimmers and kayakers, and the risk of people launching boats from vehicles and trailers, without staff on site to supervise them, is too high’. Cost was another factor detailed, it said ‘numbers of motorised launches at Milarrochy Bay have been consistently falling over the last few years. The fee for launching powered craft comes nowhere near to covering the cost of staff. The cost of staffing at the appropriate levels to safely facilitate launches, works out to be £54 per launch, which is almost the same as the £55 launch fee boat users pay for a whole year. This is simply not best use of public money.’ The authority stated that there will no reduction in launching fees, and added ‘The cost of providing safe public launch facilities far outweighs the annual fees for boat launching.’ In a statement to a local paper, one boat club argued that the Duncan Mills Memorial Slipway was not always accessible, indeed in the past, this busy slipway in Balloch has been closed for events such as the Great Scottish Swim. The authority addressed this point and said ‘When planning any event that requires the Duncan Mills Memorial Slipway to be closed to the public, we will consider access to the loch at other locations. Decisions will be made based on the particular circumstances of the event.’ The Milarrochy Bay slipway will be closed from April 1st. The toilets, beach (pictured top) and car park will remain open to the public as normal, and boaters are permitted to beach their boats to spend the day there, if launching and returning to Duncan Mills Memorial Slipway, pictured left. P

 

Extract from March MBO online magazine, seems they have a number of issues.

This is bad news for some of the users that launch their boats onto the loch. 

Loch Lomond is the only pubic loch/lake in the UK that speed boats can be used as intended since the Ban on Windermere.

Regards

Alan

[JennyMorgan]

Alan, water skiing, albeit tightly controlled, is allowed at various locations on the Southern Rivers and there are good slipways at Oulton & Cantley for example.  Speedboat racing also takes place at Oulton Broad. Granted that there is no provision for unrestricted use.

 

 

 

 

 

[ranworthbreeze]

Just now, JennyMorgan said:

Alan, water skiing, albeit tightly controlled, is allowed at various locations on the Southern Rivers and there are good slipways at Oulton & Cantley for example.  

 

 

 

 

 

I know that Peter but when was the last time you have seen any, we used to see them just above the Waters Edge but have not seen any for years. Maybe the restricted hours were too tightly controlled and the skiers went to private lakes or drifted into coastal skiing.

On Windermere they still ski from the ski school but it has to be within the speed limit. 

Regards

Alan

[JennyMorgan]

Just now, ranworthbreeze said:

I know that Peter but when was the last time you have seen any, we used to see them just above the Waters Edge but have not seen any for years. Maybe the restricted hours were too tightly controlled and the skiers went to private lakes or drifted into coastal skiing.

On Windermere they still ski from the ski school but it has to be within the speed limit. 

Regards

Alan

I agree Alan and excessive control probably has driven skiers away. Mind you, many skiers have moved over to wakeboarding and really that is not best suited to the Broads. 

[Baitrunner]

2 hours ago, ranworthbreeze said:

I know that Peter but when was the last time you have seen any, we used to see them just above the Waters Edge but have not seen any for years. Maybe the restricted hours were too tightly controlled and the skiers went to private lakes or drifted into coastal skiing.

On Windermere they still ski from the ski school but it has to be within the speed limit. 

Regards

Alan

Several times last year. Down from Rockland on the main river. 

In fact last summer we got held up by a BA launch as they were apparently testing a different boat or something. They were filming it as well.  So must be doing it a bit.  

[Speleologist]

18 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

The Right to Roam in England:

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/paths-and-access/england/what-is-the-right-to-roam.aspx

Thanks Peter, this exactly summarisies my point. The right to roam in Scotland exists by default. In England it is restricted to designated Access Areas. Also in Scotland camping is OK,. In England it is not allowed.

The Scottish code is here

The English government guidance is here

A comparison of the two shows how  much more restrictive the English right to roam rights are..Key differences are:

• In Scotland access is by default, with exceptions defined, whereas in England the default is no access unless acces has been defined
• In Scotland inland water is included. In England it is not. (This is the one of key interest to boaters, canoeists etc.)
• In Scotland camping is allowed. In England it is not
• In Scotland horse riding is allowed. In England it is not
• In Scotland cycliing is allowed. In England it is not

So the use of byelaws to restrict camping in a very small bit of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park really does not bear any relation to ENgland, where camping is not allowed anyway.

[Speleologist]

20 hours ago, Viking23 said:

So what about over night wild fishing? you often see small green tents, or shelters with an angler horizontal on a camp bed, with his rod sticking out into the river or canal, dangling his maggot.

 

As none of the river banks on The Broads are in Access Land then this is simply a matter between the angler and the landowner.

 

20 hours ago, Viking23 said:

What about the Duke of Edinburgh award schemes, not quite the same challenge if they camp out with toilet and shower facilities, wifi and electricity to hand.

In England D of E expeditions are restricted just like the rest of us. However in most mountain and moorland areas there are basic camp sites with minimal facilities. When I worked in outdoor education in the Peak District they were exactly the sort of places we used.

20 hours ago, Viking23 said:

Then you have the army guys, who are dropped off in the middle of Dartmoor with no food, water or shelter in the middle of winter ?

I suspect that this is covered under separate legislation. However from experience of military activities on non military land in national parks I know that the MOD are responsible for making good any damage caused by military exercises.

[Timbo]

I have to say restrictions on camping in England or in that matter right of access only ever caused me a problem once. As a keen scout at 15, my rucksack was always packed ready to go at a moments notice. 1980's saw my friend and I overnight with Ted Ellis and his wife at their home. The following day Ted dropped us the other side of Reedham Ferry and my friend and I spent a week 'camping' in Norfolk. We had a lightweight two man tent but most night's we made a makeshift camp simply climbed inside a bivvy bag,  and camped where we felt like it...One night under the new bridge at Potter Heigham. On route we walked the coastline and the only time we had access problems was when we moved from one beach to the next and ended up on a beach used by a holiday camp. 

Escorted through the camp by security like two vagabonds we were dumped on the road by the camp gate and the map they had confiscated thrown back at me. I caught it...checked the route and we followed the security guy back into the holiday camp. When the security guard decided he was going to get shirty and laid his hand on me an off duty policeman on holiday at the camp intervened...checked the map, confirmed my route and escorted us back to the beach where we picked up the coastal path again.

Canoeing access used to be so much easier too. The following year my friend along with Uncle Albert for safety sake, canoed the River Idle, ported our canoes to the Chesterfield Canal and canoed the entire length of the canal, camping on the canal bank as we went. Fresh drinking water was our main problem. British Waterways were incredibly helpful and supplied us with a water tank that we could fill with fresh water and tow behind out canoes. They also organised access to fresh water along our route and provided us with a couple of fresh homemade meals along the way. They did ask for something in return though. Simply to remove all the fishing line, hooks, floats and leads that had been discarded or tangled in trees on the far bank as we went along and to report any obstructions we may come across...like the submerged fence post we came across halfway through Drakeholes Tunnel.

[TheQ]

Dartmoor is owned for the most part by the MOD and is offically a Military Firing Range, therefore the army have no problems at all!! it's the public that have to keep their head down. Very like Salisbury plain if the red flags are flying, don't even think about it...

 I never met Ted Ellis, but have quite often sailed against his grandson Matt ( and usually lost).

I only had a problem once with access once, we were practicing for the Ten Tors, and somewhere not too far from Banwell (near Weston super-mare) we were following a public foot path right up to a gate which we opened and let ourselves through before attempting to carry on. There was a gate the other side of the garden matching that point. At this point a woman came out of the house really shouting at us and giving us abuse saying the public foot path was a bit further down the field. We did turn round and go that way.

But later found out we had gone the right way in the first place, the house owners had extended their garden and spent years trying to get the footpath diverted unsuccessfully...

[JennyMorgan]

I have a public footpath over my land, very rarely a problem, indeed my wife and I enjoy the friendships we have struck up with both walkers and the dogs that accompany some of them. If someone buys a house with a footpath over the land then they should accept it. Bit like folk who move into the country then complain about the cows mooing!