Mudweight Anywhere ?

[Snowy]

Hello all

can you mudweight on any Broad ?

 

[Broads01]

Interesting question. There are more knowledgeable folk than me to say but I believe the answer is yes, with exceptions. Exceptions that come to mind are South Walsham Inner Broad and Breydon (which I know isn't technically a Broad anyway). Where you have to keep to marked channels like on Barton no-one would thank you for mooring within a channel. 

[TheQ]

I think Wroxham Sailing club would object if you were to mudweight in the middle of their sailing courses, best stick to the ends of that broad. There is also a charge for using that broad to mudweight, if they can be bothered to come and collect it.

I believe at times there have been charges on Salhouse broad as well.

 

If you happen to intend to moor on a broad where sailing/racing is going on.

Then the best proceedure is to observe where the bouys / racing marks are and then Mudweight somewhere out of the way.  You can watch the racing without fear, as...... if you moor on the course,  you will find boats all around you and probably very close..

 

Oh and don't try and moor to a racing mark as I found one day boat doing,

A, the owners will be annoyed, and

B, the marks only have a couple of pounds weight on them and you'll find yourself drifting down the broad...

 

[Broads01]

Interesting point about charging. I saw the signs at Wroxham Broad this year - are they new? Also, I recall a discussion a while back where it was stated that collection of a fee for mudweighting was unenforceable. I think Salhouse was the subject of that thread. 

[JennyMorgan]

As I understand it the owner of the bottom a broad may charge if they so wish.  Now, I only own a little bit of Oulton Broad, absolutely no amenities,  it's got to be worth a tenner a night!

[TheQ]

8 hours ago, Broads01 said:

Interesting point about charging. I saw the signs at Wroxham Broad this year - are they new? Also, I recall a discussion a while back where it was stated that collection of a fee for mudweighting was unenforceable. I think Salhouse was the subject of that thread. 

People keep quoting an arm of the sea etc, free navigation, but the broads are not natural and have an owner. Although there may be an established right of navigation over them (Not Wroxham), mooring up or mudweighting is at  the discretion of the owner. I would also point out the crown estates make a fortune out of the moorings on the saltier rivers round the country...

 There have been signs on Wroxham broad for years, but every so often they change / repair them, sometimes with new wording...

 

Salhouse has been a problem because at one point an unauthorised person was rowing around collecting fees and muddying the question somewhat..

[Vaughan]

The tide has a lot to with it. Great Hoveton broad is still closed because it is officially non tidal, so the landowner owns the water, as well as the bottom. The same for Wroxham broad, but the NBYC choose to open it and allow access. Black Horse Broad is tidal, so the owners have been forced to open it for some of the year.

In all these cases, as well as Salhouse, a fee can be charged if you touch the sides, or the bottom.

[TheQ]

Not quite, the same owner who closed Hoveton Great Broad, tried to close Hoveton Little Broad (Black horse Broad) The Villagers of Horning kept removing the barriers that were put up by the Blofield family, Police were involved until a compromise was arranged leaving Hoveton Little Broad open each Summer. Sadly there wasn't anyone to stop Hoveton Great Broad being closed off Even though there are Pictures of Wherries sailing across it (as a short cut to following the river.

The tide had nothing to do with it, only the Blofield familys wish to close the broads and the villagers wish to keep them open.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoveton_Little_Broad

[Vaughan]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

The tide had nothing to do with it, only the Blofield familys wish to close the broads and the villagers wish to keep them open.

It's a long time ago now, but for the sake of history, my father was one of the "30 local men" involved in the "invasion of Black Horse Broad" in 1949, as a director of Blakes. It was indeed enforce-able because of tides, as the Little Broad was officially tidal, and the Great Broad was not. The landowner was therefore proved not to "own the water" in Black Horse Broad. It all had to do with the point at which the river on the Ordnance Survey map turned from dark blue (tidal) to light blue (non tidal) and this, in those days, was at the downstream entrance to the Great Broad.

[TheQ]

In that case since I believe it can be shown the waters are tidal as far as Coltishall lock maybe there is a case for reopening Hoveton Great Broad?

[Vaughan]

I wish there were! My father, when he became chairman of Blakes, spent many years in correspondence with Mr Blofeld about the Great Broad, as Herbert Woods did before him.  Blakes had a plan to re-open the old navigation on both sides of the Bure and create a one-way system between Horning Ferry and Hudson's Bay, just south of Wroxham. It was a serious project, in the in the late 50's.

As to tide, we all know that there is a tide in a glass of water. You can't measure it, but it's there. (as Langford Jillings used to say). The problem is what is legally tidal, and I have heard that the defining line may now have moved upstream above Wroxham Broad. In which case there would be a legal argument, but who is going to pursue it through the courts? Not the BA, it seems.

[TheQ]

It would be interesting because I assume the judge was working on the arm of the sea laws. However now we know that the broads are man made that doesn't apply, which would strengthen the Blofields case.  So we would have to rely on custom and use / right of navigation. I know I've seen photos somewhere of wherries crossing Hoveton  Great Broad, but not of the little broad.

So is there evidence of  use of Black Horse  Broad? If not we could gain use of the great broad but lose use of the little broad...

[JennyMorgan]

The Q, you refer to the Broads as being man-made. In part they are but equally in part they are not. The Waveney, for example is largely a natural river. In all a fascinating topic with various answers depending, in part, on what period in the Broad's evolution you choose to investigate, or what book that you read!.

[WherryNice]

Are the broads actually man made though? Now before anyone starts I do know that they were formed by the peat diggings flooding but I believe the actual rivers were already, naturally, there yes? So my question is were the diggings flooded on purpose(making the broads definitely man made) or did they flood as a result of something more organic such as water levels rising over time or say a one off flood event? Just a little something to ponder...

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[JennyMorgan]

WherryNice, in my opinion you have just answered your own question!

[Vaughan]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

So is there evidence of  use of Black Horse  Broad? If not we could gain use of the great broad but lose use of the little broad...

Sorry, but I hoped I had explained that above.

In the old days, the wherries could sail from Daisy Broad in Hoveton, across Hudsons Bay and Hoveton Great Broad, cross the river at the downstream entrance and then sail across what are now marshes until they came out again just south of Horning Ferry, opposite what used to be Wilds boatyard dyke. They did this because they had better sailing in open water. I am sure this old navigation must still be visible in satellite photos.

TIMBO? Where are you when we need you? Put down whatever you are doing in your "Tardis" and come and join us!

 

[TheQ]

Sorry Vaughan I appreciate the short cut across what is now the marshes but is there evidence of Hoveton little broad(aka black horse broad) being used by wherries for anything. I have a reprint of the 1790s fadens map of norfolk http://www.fadensmapofnorfolk.co.uk which shows much more open waters and broads.

Jenny Morgan, when I referred to the broads I was referring to the broads not the rivers, we don't have a problem accessing the navigable rivers but do have problems accessing some broads.

Wherrynice I believe somewhere on this site and possibly by documented research it's thought that as each section was dug out sections were flooded to allow wherries or keels closer access to the diggings. Also by digging out the remaining dam of peat to the next excavated section you were recovering more peat.

[WherryNice]

Very much man made in that case then. Still poses a few more questions though, I shall have a nosey round see whats out there on the subject

Sent from the Norfolk Broads Network mobile app

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, TheQ said:

Sorry Vaughan I appreciate the short cut across what is now the marshes but is there evidence of Hoveton little broad(aka black horse broad) being used by wherries for anything.

I was first shown this old navigation by Leslie Landamore, who knew a great deal about the history of the area and directly opposite the downstream entrance to Gt Hoveton you can still see a small private lake (hardly a broad) which was all part of this old route. I don't know if the Little Broad was ever a navigation, but if by chance there were a history of a staithe, leading to the old Black Horse pub, then it would have been.

The important thing about this broad is that it is legally tidal and that was the basis of the enforced opening in 1949. For many years after, you were only allowed to cruise around it, but not to drop a mud weight. I believe that rule has nowadays been relaxed?

 

[Vaughan]

14 hours ago, JennyMorgan said:

The Q, you refer to the Broads as being man-made. In part they are but equally in part they are not. The Waveney, for example is largely a natural river.

So is the Bure, as it has headwaters above Coltishall which go right on beyond Aylsham and so the river flows from its source out to sea. At some point there must be a place where it becomes tidal in law and this was, and still is, upstream of the Little Broad.

I am sure that, if necessary, that argument should still "hold water"!

Well worth the sailing club looking into the history of a possible staithe though. It is possible that the old pub would have had one and in that case, the dyke and the broad must have been a "navigation". If not, why would there have been a dyke to the broad in the first place?

[JennyMorgan]

3 hours ago, TheQ said:

Sorry Vaughan I appreciate the short cut across what is now the marshes but is there evidence of Hoveton little broad(aka black horse broad) being used by wherries for anything. I have a reprint of the 1790s fadens map of norfolk http://www.fadensmapofnorfolk.co.uk which shows much more open waters and broads.

Jenny Morgan, when I referred to the broads I was referring to the broads not the rivers, we don't have a problem accessing the navigable rivers but do have problems accessing some broads.

Wherrynice I believe somewhere on this site and possibly by documente

d research it's thought that as each section was dug out sections were flooded to allow wherries or keels closer access to the diggings. Also by digging out the remaining dam of peat to the next excavated section you were recovering more peat.

Q, I fully accept your point but I can assure you that there are people within the Authority who would wish to be able to control access to rivers, some of which have been influenced by man. The Broads area is a pretty unique waterway and navigation, hence the debate that we are having right now. 

[marshman]

Vaughan - out of interest my OS map shows the NTL (Normal Tidal Limit) as adjacent to the northernmost entrance to Wroxham Broad and whilst you could argue otherwise I suspect, that seems pretty definitive to me as being on record?

And as to the rivers being natural, up North here JM, I doubt there is very little original river around, especially on the Ant and lots of the Bure as they dug new bits and abandoned the old! So in these places, is it natural or manmade???!!!

[Cheesey]

Don't really matter either way.

Beauty of living in a country without a written constitution is the law can be whatever they say it is when they say it will be.

Ancient rights can and have been modernised to suit. 

[Vaughan]

Just now, marshman said:

Vaughan - out of interest my OS map shows the NTL (Normal Tidal Limit) as adjacent to the northernmost entrance to Wroxham Broad and whilst you could argue otherwise I suspect, that seems pretty definitive to me as being on record?

Yes, I was talking with a couple of planners last year (my brothers-in-law) who told me that the tideline nowadays is further up towards Wroxham, whereas in the 40s and 50s it was just downstream of Gt Hoveton, as I remember seeing it on the map.

Either, way, it still means Black Horse Broad is tidal.

With regard to the Bure, as a meandering river it will have changed its course many times within the Broads area over the centuries and as Timbo tells us, several of the political boundaries in this area are based on the old courses of the rivers. Just because some bends have been cut off by canals, such as at St Benets, does not alter the fact that it is a river with a source well outside the Broads area and which is flowing directly out to sea. There will therefore be a point at which it is considered as tidal.

The same applies to the Thames, where some of its meanders have been "bypassed" with canal cuts, such as at Penton Hook and which has two parts : The Tidal Thames and the Upper Thames, the boundary being formed by Teddington Locks. 

[marshman]

I am not going into this too deep Vaughan, but it would require someone with very deep pockets to argue these finer points in a court of law!!

Incidentally the NTL on the Ant is shown as the lower entrance to Barton, whilst on the Thurne it is the southern end of Heigham Sound and on the other bit towards West Somerton, as Dungeon Corner!

Talking of Dungeon Corner, which we weren't, there is an interesting article in the new Harnser by my old mate Mike Sparkes, as to how that got its name.  Worth a read even if is not entirely true - but of course it may be!!