The 3 Rivers Race...........

[andyandsallyb]

Firstly may I appologise if this causes offense to anyone on this forum. The following is just my personal feelings and first hand account of my experience attempting to pilot my motor criuser from Wroxham through to Potter Heigham on Saturday 4th June.

My feeling is that the rule of "power gives way to sail" is interpreted by many as "powered vessel = second class citizen" and to succesfully and safely pilot a powered vessel you must somehow posses the ability for telepathy to guess what the sail you are giving way to is going to do next, or not?

I always make my best effort to be curtious to, and understanding of other river users but Saturdays events left me the most stressed and annoyed that I have ever been. I would say that in my life I have not met such a group of inconsiderate and unaccomodating individuals.

When I arrived in Horning there were 2 broards authority rangers giving advice on how to deal with what lied ahead. Basically keep speed to a minimum and stay hard over to the right. Seemed simple enough? I assume that others with similar sized boats to ours have similar limited control issues at very low speeds, and add to this the fairly high winds.....

What I witnessed from participants in this event was in my view a total dissregard for the safety of non participating river users, and in particular inexperienced hire boat users. Often using abusive language to the other party. I was hit by no less than 4 sail boats in this short criuse the third of which glanced my port-bow loosing control and finally ditching himself in the reed bank only to proclaim the entire incident as being my fault! a female member of the crew rather vocally describing me as a F***ing C**k !!! in front of my 2 young daughters !!!! I witnessed several hire criusers being struck and then being pushed into the reed beds. Finally a hire criuser being ordered to reverse up unfortunately straight into the bow of "Evening Star"

So far the worst experience on thr broads......

Andy

[donnygeoff]

what if next year....

we get some rowing boats...

Then see if they give way.

boot on other foot sort of thing.

But, the swearing bit was well out of order.

Hope not much damage was done to Evening Star

[MY littleboat]

Sadly Andy, because of the wind, I've heard that there has been a higher than normal volume of damage done this year, and from what I gather alot of complaints about VERY badly behaved sailing craft and crews

This event is a traditional event and has an ever increasing following, however, especially for those hiring boats, many are unaware what it entails. Certainly hirers will be the worst affected as this event does severely impact their holiday - especially if only booked onto a weekend break - as very few booking agents will have information about the 3 rivers.. Very few will know that in order to make headway against the wind, sailing boats will sail as 'close to the wind' as possible and make their tacks as long as possible within the width confines of the river, often taking their bowsprites into the reeds on the banks in order to gain an advantage - inevitably this is when other vessels are hit as the competetiveness in this event has risen beyond a 'gentlemanly' race and getting an advantage at any cost is the main goal for many.

When the wind is in a sailing boats favour or it is on a run (ie the wind behind) the sailing craft have pretty good steerage and behave as motor engined boat crews would expect.

Early reports have been very damning that this year a few too many people have taken things a little too seriously and there have even been reports of scuffles between boat crews (And a damn good fist fight on the water in one case!). Tradition is giving way to something else - we said it last year and this year it is being said again. A black mark against those that feel that competition and winning at ANY cost is more important than taking part and enjoying this little piece of Broads tradition.

I am a motor boater but come from a sailing background and see both sides of the coin on this one, the three rivers race is unique and special and is a fab event, however, I learnt long ago that the best place to view it is from the shore, or atop a bridge, and the best place for our own boat is tucked up in bed in the marina. Threads were posted before the event to warn of possible damage that may be caused (as it always does) and that the chance of a vessel stopping after such a collision are nil, however, it is not a time for sailies to pop their head under their wing and pretend that this year has been a 'perfect' competition of gentlemanly sport!!

Oh and one final point, regardless of local bylaws, and etiquette, COLREGS still apply!

[Hylander]

Going to stick my neck out here. Dont you think in the light of the fact that everyone new the wind was going to make the race hairy to say the least , could it not have been postponed to another day when conditions would have been so much better. Surely it is very unfair to criticise everyone as not being a 'saily' I would have thought controlling the boat in that wind was nigh on impossible for some people, hence all the problems. Do think though if the guilty ones that did have the misfortune to damage other boats should hold their hands up and not just be under the impression that they are beyond the law.

There you have it - my 10p worth.

[goodall_m1]

what if next year....

we get some rowing boats...

Then see if they give way.

boot on other foot sort of thing.

But, the swearing bit was well out of order.

Hope not much damage was done to Evening Star

As a member of the rag and stick brigade (not on the Broads though) I must say that the behaviour of some yachties seems to change for the worse whenever someone mentions "racing". They seem to think that collision regs, (or on the Broads the B.A. byelaws), don't apply to sailing vessels when racing, and you get the same attitude from them whether on the Solent or the Broads.

Having looked at some photos of the event I would have said it was best described as Mayhem, and I was just glad that I wasn't mixed up in it.

Over canvassed for the weather, in close quarters with other vessels, and behaving like raving lunatics with little regard for anybody but themselves.

What any poor novice helm out for their first holiday on the Broads would have thought I hate to think.

How many of them won't come back to the Broads as a result.

How much damage the sailing fraternity caused to other boats, moored or moving I don't know but I wonder how they would appreciate a few law-suits!

From the photos I looked at they were treating other sailors with the same bad manners as Andy found they had with cruisers.

In response to Donny's suggestion I have a better one, lets hire Mirage or Brabazon from Alphacraft for the weekend of the next 3RR and fill her up with beefy cruiser owners. Now take four quanting poles switch off the engine, and start quanting her down the Bure. BA byelaws state that a quanting vessel has priority over ALL OTHER CRAFT including sailing vessels, and at 50ft Brabazon or Mirage are the biggest roadblocks you can get unless it is a wherry.

And a darn sight safer than messing about with a rowing boat or two with those idiots about.

[Guest]

I gave sail racing a go many moons ago. Seemed like a good idea at the time, pitting wits against other like minded people and the weather.

Sadly I quickly realised that to be successful (if not endowed with Nelson like seamanship which i'm not) you had to turn into a coniving, cheating, arrogant, load mouthed thug.

I had no trouble fitting in .... what I couldn't stand was LOSING!!!!

[teadaemon]

I was in the race this year (crewing on Perfect Lady 9, SN 399), and we managed to do very well, starting at 12:05 and finishing at 00:36 for a total elapsed time of 12 hours and 31 minutes before handicapping. The wind was certainly not strong enough that abandoning the race was a serious possibility, although I did notice that after a couple of hours most of those boats that could put a reef in had done so (including us).

Swearing at other boats (whether racers or not, sail or motor) is out of order, and if you remember which boat it is (sail number or name) then letting Horning Sailing Club know is a good idea. The Three Rivers Race is invitational and they do state in the race briefing that competitors are required to show courtesy to other river users, on pain of potentially not being invited back again. I didn't see any punches being thrown, but that's definitely behaviour that will not be tolerated. I also didn't witness any serious (resulting in visible damage or injuries) collisions between competitors and private or hire boats, although I don't doubt there were some. The vast majority of collisions I saw were between competitors, or with the bank (or similar unyielding objects - there's only one winner of Norfolk Punt vs. moored up Princess Katherine, and a very, very loud crunch).

In previous years I've been handing over hire boats and day boats in Horning on the weekend of the race, and I'm always very clear that they'll have a lot more fun if they keep out of the way of the racers (I normally send them up above Ludham Bridge for the Saturday if they ask for suggestions). One hire cruiser did ask us what do as they came around the corner heading downstream and saw 100 boats waiting on the bank or tacking up towards the start line. My skipper gave a friendly suggestion that going back and mudweighting on the Broad for an hour would have given them a nice clear run down the river behind all the yachts, but they decided to carry on regardless (I think they got through without too much trouble, although probably a lot more stressed than if they'd followed our advice).

[Poppy]

When the wind is in a sailing boats favour or it is on a run (ie the wind behind) the sailing craft have pretty good steerage ........

...........

Oh and one final point, regardless of local bylaws, and etiquette, COLREGS still apply!

The first point is a common misapprehension. Running yachts ( that is, with the wind astern) must be very careful in manouvering. If the wind should move across the rear of the sail, it can be extremely difficult to control, and the stonger the wind, the greater the danger. In addition, traditional gaff rigged craft with long booms (some as long as 20' or more) present greater risks.

I apologise if the foregoing is 'gobbledegook' for some - but that wouldn't surprise me. However, bad language is not acceptable, whichever way it is directed - and as a yachtsman, I've received my share from MoBos, both hied and private.

As for COLREGS, may I respectfully refer to Navigation Bylaws 1995 1 (5) which is specific on this point.

[MY littleboat]

The first point is a common misapprehension. Running yachts ( that is, with the wind astern) must be very careful in manouvering. If the wind should move across the rear of the sail, it can be extremely difficult to control, and the stonger the wind, the greater the danger. In addition, traditional gaff rigged craft with long booms (some as long as 20' or more) present greater risks.

Well as you correctly point out it does depend on what sail configuration you have, but if you read the point I'm making regarding the EXPECTATION of which direction the vessel is moving (In relation to Andys post) then you will realise that this generalisation explains the movement of a sailing boat. It isn't a common misapprehension as far as I am concerened.

As for the Navigation Bylaws, I am well aware that Secton 5 states that COLREGS should not apply where Bylaws are in place but if you read back on this and OTHER forums you will see that where Insurance claims are concerned, Bylaws are ignored flately and claims are ONLY settled where they are satisfied that COLREGS have been adhered too - odd little paradox there as I bet if you pull out your own Insurance small print you will find that The Broads Navigational Bylaws are not referred to at all!! That aside Section 7 - Responsibility applies to masters of sailing craft as much as any other type of craft!

As this post develops, more and more evidence is coming to light, I;ve just had a conversation with someone who has sustained severe damage after his MOORED vessel was struck on at least 4 occasions and not one person has left any details... odd that as it seems to be quite usual the 'pretend' you are above the law if you are in a sailing boat..

Maybe we should have a three rivers race for powered craft too!!

[MY littleboat]

On a completely unrelated point, Horning Sailing Club - a sugestion for the future - please liase with the BA more closely and have the details of the race/route published on the Notice to Mariners section of the BA website - maybe helpful to those visiting / hirers

[marshman]

All interesting stuff but it would all have been avoided with a bit of common sense and patience. How easy would it have been to have moored in Blackhorse Broad and had lunch and waited until they had all gone?

I respect my boat and would not have gone anywhere near Horning Reach between 10 and 1 - still it takes all sorts!!!!

[donnygeoff]

Just a quick question....

I have made 2 phone calls this morning to sort out insurance for my son who is getting a scooter.

Having listened to all the jargon about cover, under the normal comprehensive/TPFT cover he is not covered for racing, I believe it is the same with car insurance.

Do the competitors in the 3RR have to get special insurance for racing or does their normal insurance cover it.

[MY littleboat]

Absolutely valid point as when I used to have my daily insured -albeit nearly 20 years ago - it specifically mentioned regattas and racing and there was a premium on top if I wished to use my boat as such. I'm not sure what the policies are like for small vessels as most if these will be covered by RYA membership type schemes that only have public liability cover and none in respect of third party interests

[teadaemon]

Cover for racing risks is normally an option for yacht insurance - on mine it added about £10 per year to the premium (although to get it I also had to opt for cover up to 12 miles offshore rather than just inland waterways, so that will also have added to the price). As most of the smaller boats are used more for racing than cruising, often policies tailored to them include racing risks by default.

[Poppy]

Just a quick question....

Do the competitors in the 3RR have to get special insurance for racing or does their normal insurance cover it.

Indeed they do, as do all competitors in yacht racing on the Broads and elsewhere. At least one club requires £2m third party cover

http://www.ea-cc.org/default.asp?id=94&mnu=94

Other clubs will have similar rules.

[MY littleboat]

[Matt]

The equivalent weekend next year will coincide with the Diamond Jubille weekend. I imagine the rivers will be even busier than this year......

[teadaemon]

The equivalent weekend next year will coincide with the Diamond Jubille weekend. I imagine the rivers will be even busier than this year......

I wouldn't like to second-guess the race committee, but if it was thought that the clash of dates would prove to be a particular problem, they may decide to move the date of the race by a week to avoid such a clash. IIRC, this has been done at least once before.

[Poppy]

On a completely unrelated point, Horning Sailing Club - a sugestion for the future - please liase with the BA more closely and have the details of the race/route published on the Notice to Mariners section of the BA website - maybe helpful to those visiting / hirers

I wonder how many hirers visit the BA website before they come on holiday - most appear not to even read the handbook on board their vessel. It would be helpful if the yards would brief their clients about the race, but perhaps they don't know about it. After all, it's quite a new event having been taking place for only 51 years so far

[teadaemon]

I wonder how many hirers visit the BA website before they come on holiday - most appear not to even read the handbook on board their vessel. It would be helpful if the yards would brief their clients about the race, but perhaps they don't know about it. After all, it's quite a new event having been taking place for only 51 years so far

I can assure you that the yards do know about it, and do tell hirers. Whether said hirers choose to take a blind bit of notice is another matter - some do, and some don't. I am pleased to say that all the Freedom boats I saw out appeared to be handling the traffic reasonably well and with sufficient confidence (although I'd question the wisdom of Song of Freedom's decision to head through pretty much the entire fleet spread either side of the start line, he was managing ok, helped by having a very easy to handle boat). Hopefully that wasn't just luck and it's because our handovers are up to scratch.

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

Hi all, Last year, we picked up "Tower Bridge" from Bridgecraft on Sat 5th June, and yes, it was the 3RR weekend. When we arrived at the yard, ALL the staff were sat outside watching all the action, and were waiting to see if anybody hit their boats. We put all our luggage aboard, and went off by car to Asda`s at Gt Yarmouth, but when we got back, all the sailing had ceased, giving us a clear run all the way to Womack island. The following day, we set off for Potter Heigham, and arrived well before all the racing crews. We had to wait in Herbert Woods yard for an hour or 2 til the tide was low enough for us to get through safely, so we never even saw any of the racing. At the time, i was a little disappointed, but on reflection, we made the right choice, as another 35 ft boat on the river would have been just another hazard to get moaned at. I`ve only ever lost my rag twice on the Broads, the 1st time being in 89 when a boat came across Breydon water at about 20 knots without even slowing down, and the second was when we were cruising down the Bure into Horning following a yacht which was creeping along beside the reeds. We gradually came up and started to come past and drew level with his stern, when he decided to tack straight across the river. We missed "T boning" him by about 2" and all we got was the skipper mouthing off at us saying he always has rite of way. The worst part of this incident was the fact that the skipper looked behind and saw us coming up to him, and NEVER gave any kind of signal of his intentions. Needles to say, the air was extremely blue, and the skipper was told what he would have got had we hit his boat through his own stupidity. This year, we decided to go a little later so i can do some fishing. Roll on Fridy 17th June, and not a yacht race in sight. Regards to all ................. Neil.

[MY littleboat]

I can assure you that the yards do know about it, and do tell hirers. Whether said hirers choose to take a blind bit of notice is another matter - some do, and some don't. I am pleased to say that all the Freedom boats I saw out appeared to be handling the traffic reasonably well and with sufficient confidence (although I'd question the wisdom of Song of Freedom's decision to head through pretty much the entire fleet spread either side of the start line, he was managing ok, helped by having a very easy to handle boat). Hopefully that wasn't just luck and it's because our handovers are up to scratch.

Actually agree with both these posts for different reasons but am sort of alarmed at this to some degree. Poppy - You are absolutely right in that hirers probably wouldnt look at the NtM however I'm sure it may high-light as a reminder for the odd owner who may have forgotten, but that aside, teadeamon - i know that the yards do tell hirers, but I think that people come on holiday with pre-determined itiniaries quite often and also more and more hires are being booked either directly online or through third party booking agents and so may not get this information until they actually arrive at the vessel. Lastly, if hirers refuse to take a 'blind bit of notice' opens up a whole other debate. It has been long known that handovers vary in quality from boring the pants off someone who is not interested and quite often not the person who will be helming the boat to 'theres yer boat mate, seeya friday'... I know these are extremes, but here is a question for you teadeamon - Are you seeing more people nowadays who either profess to be competent in a boat and plainly aren't or just quite frankly are so set in getting away as soon as possible that they just wont listen to the handover? I ask this genuinely, as, although the season is young, there seems to have been a very high number of hire craft in trouble so far this year? - This is a genuine question and I invite comments from those who actually know - like yourself as I would be very keen to get an honest and accurate idea of how big of a problem this is becoming or not becoming....

[Guest DAYTONA-BILL]

Hi Gav, a very interresting point you raise about the number of hire boats getting into trouble?. On a recent phone call to Maffett cruisers regarding part of Swallows itinery, John said he had to go and rescue a boat stranded on the Breydon mudflats. It was a private boat. That said, there was a photo posted recently in another section showing not one, but two hire boats stuck fast on Breydon, and they were only yards apart. I totally agree about hirers NOT listening, because if they did, you would`nt see so many stuck hard and fast on the mudflats. Whenever we hire a boat we`ve never been on, we ALWAYS listen very carefully to the engineer doing the handover, and even if we`ve hired it before, we like to go over things again in case they`ve changed things. Regards to all .................... Neil.

[Hockham Admiral]

We were sitting quietly with a G&T this afternoon(at Surlingham) when Mary-Jane looked up and said:

"That boat's going to hit us!"

I turned around to see an Alpha 35CC at high speed in reverse coming in at 45degrees to the bank (and us)...............

It didn't slow down and indeed did hit us............ we bounced off the bank quite violently and I was rather rude to the skipper.....

He apologised profusely and said it was their first stop on their first trip on the Broads.... he also said that he'd missed the yard briefing which was given to his wife...

[MY littleboat]

He apologised profusely and said it was their first stop on their first trip on the Broads.... he also said that he'd missed the yard briefing which was given to his wife...

i'm hearing this more and more