Tolls (that’s Not A Swear Word!) Amongst Other Things.

[MY littleboat]

I have raised elsewhere, and not sure I have an answer, mainly about the additional funds that have been made available this year to the existing 10 National Park Authorities of which BA are one - I am slightly concerned that this actually means that the Broads are actually now a NP and not just a 'member of the NP family,' in the eyes of legislation and that this may lead to further alignment to the Sandford Principles, and is completely in opposition to the responsibility as a Statutory Harbour Authority.

But more so is this, £4.4million was released to the 10 National Park Authorities in March. a further £2.5 made immediately available in the Summer, a further £2.5 for young and disadvantaged persons access, and then Steve Barclay, this week announced a further £40 million availability for a new national forest and new national park as with £15million for the existing 10 authorities, linked to the delivery of 'green' projects which meet the Green Recovery Challenge Fund criteria, and when Steve Barclay was being interviewed in Datmoor, suggested 'reducing or eliminating motorised vehicles' and described a Bio diversity Net-Gain challenge.

I wonder, firstly, how much additional cash is going to (or already has) landed in the coffers of the BA, and secondly, how much BA envisages it is going to gain from this fund as 10% of this would still be approximately £2.5million - and therefore, should any toll decision not now be re-assessed?

[MY littleboat]

Question of the day - does anyone expect JP to fall on his sword and a new JP mini-me take his place? It appears he has alot of support outside of the general boating community?

[RS2021]

We are living in very economically challenging times. Local authorities are saving costs. National Park authorities are saving costs. The Broads Authority is still spend spend spend. This has been spotted by MPs. This is the beginning of the end of JP. However, I have no doubt he will linger on well past his sell by date. He has removed all those from around him who would have a quiet word in his ear.

[dnks34]

I think whatever happens going forward Tolls are very unlikely to be rolled back and JP is very very unlikely to fall on his sword.  As you suggest there is always the next ecologist with a Phd and an agenda to take his place anyway. 
 

The Broads Authority has grown into an ugly monster that even its mother couldn’t love.  
 

The Broads Authority should be forced to concentrate on being the simple mundane Harbour Authority it was originally intended with 1 very clear objective.  Maintaining the Broads.  Everything else it has got itself involved in is totally irrelevant to its every day business. 
 

Only then might the spending be more reasonable.

[BroadAmbition]

You make a very valid point about what the Blessed Authority has morphed into since its inception.
 

It is now a body that it was never assigned to be without any input or agreement from the Citizens of Broadland 
 

I cannot help thinking we’ve been here before when the common market morphed into the EU without any input or agreement from the citizens of Britain 

We all know how that ended

Griff

[dom]

The Broads is not a national park and unlikely to be treated as such unless the Norfolk and Suffolk Broads Act 1988 is repealed. The latter is probably fairly unlikely given all the other issues government has to deal with, unless some great benefit becomes apparent.

If JP goes, I suspect Bill Dickson might be a candidate for the role, but that'd almost certainly be to the detriment of the boating community. I get the impression he'd take an passive role and just employ a subordinate JP clone.

I'm fast becoming a grey haired old man, so think it's fair for me to say there are far too many grey haired old men running the organisation. There needs to be a better gender balance and some younger blood. I suspect JP's departure would almost certainly attract wider scrutiny and result in some positive discrimination to bring in some minority representation. Ultimately, it really needs one or more people with a boating industry background in a position of authority. Potentially, it could be improved by an arrangement like the RYA and some other cooperative type bodies. One of my distant family members had a long history in the boating industry and was a director of the RYA - they were appointed, gave what they could to benefit the organisation, then left a couple of years later before stagnation set in.

What really needs to happen is a unified group to be formed - maybe even BRAG becoming a sub-organisation under an existing body such as NSBA. Create a "fighting fund", hold regular open meetings and actually do something to actively instigate change. At the moment, there just seems to be 99% moaning and a tiny number of people actively doing anything. I suspect the 5 MPs stepping up is primarily the result of James Knight's actions. One thing BRAG could be said to have achieved is concentrating disgruntled people in one place where they're easy to communicate with, but not much else seems to be forthcoming from them to date and there are some elements within the group which definitely need removing.

If you listen to the two recordings floating around from BA committee meetings, it's very evident they don't have the first idea whether they're likely to get any additional funding, or what for. In one of the meetings, it was claimed there was no margin to reduce staffing anywhere. Personally, if I took a senior role there tomorrow, I'd cull one role immediately and ensure there was an employee solely tasked with going after funding (assuming there isn't one already. If there is, it sounds like they need sacking). If a body couldn't be cut from the planning department (which could probably lose a few), then I'd question whether Spirit of Breydon really needs two full time crew, or whether it could be single handed, meeting up with another river or yacht station ranger in case of emergency which needed multiple crew.

[dom]

30 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

This is the beginning of the end of JP. However, I have no doubt he will linger on well past his sell by date.

Listen to what he uses as a defense when he has to justify expenditure. His prejudices may well be his downfall.

 

[RS2021]

Whilst I believe it's only a matter of time before JP goes. You have to ask what next for the Broads. JP has been very good at maintaining spending on the Broads (at toll payers expense). Elsewhere  everyone has been cost constrained. Whoever takes over will no doubt have to implement quite severe cost cutting. It is quite likely it will affect both 'National Park' and Navigation functions. I only hope that whoever comes next is better at engaging stakeholders on the Broads. 

I also love the canals and would really like to hire a boat to do the Huddersfield Narrow canal. I'm very hesitant to do so as with current CRT management and funding there is no guarantee the canal would be even open when I hired a boat. At present between the Broads Authority and CRT, the Broads seem to be in a much better situation. But, for how long...

[dom]

12 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

Whoever takes over will no doubt have to implement quite severe cost cutting.

There's quite a lot of spending which could be curbed relatively easily. I'm surprised in amongst all the current row, no-one is mentioning that more land has also been purchased in the last year. There are some real vanity projects too. The heritage restoration partnership with City College is all very nice, but hardly essential spending in the midst of a financial crisis. Ancillary to that, they're also employing a heritage construction specialist. Cutting this expenditure for a year or two would reduce the financial pressure and give the projected reduction in inflation time to take effect. They're currently basing forecast expenditure on inflation rates far higher than OBR are predicting.

23 minutes ago, RS2021 said:

I also love the canals and would really like to hire a boat to do the Huddersfield Narrow canal.

Looks really nice. I've had some enjoyable times on the canals, but I'm not sure I fancy 3 hours stuck in Standedge Tunnel. I'd think you'd want a couple of skippers for that, as I'd imagine it gets pretty tiring navigating in the dark for that long!

 

 

 

[Vaughan]

8 hours ago, dnks34 said:

The Broads Authority should be forced to concentrate on being the simple mundane Harbour Authority it was originally intended with 1 very clear objective.  Maintaining the Broads.  Everything else it has got itself involved in is totally irrelevant to its every day business. 

As one of the grey haired old men that has been mentioned above     but who was nonetheless quite heavily involved in the running of Broadland "in his day", I can look back and say that in fact the BA was supposed to be more than a mundane harbor authority (the Commissioners), so that more decisions could be made in one place, rather than seeking them from several different committees and agencies.

This was the promise that was expected of them, despite a great deal of local opposition to the idea at the time - including mine.  Sure enough and just exactly as we all feared, they have reneged on that promise and have become the beast that we see today.

[floydraser]

14 hours ago, MY littleboat said:

Question of the day - does anyone expect JP to fall on his sword and a new JP mini-me take his place? 

 

13 hours ago, dom said:

If JP goes, I suspect Bill Dickson might be a candidate for the role, but that'd almost certainly be to the detriment of the boating community. I get the impression he'd take an passive role and just employ a subordinate JP clone.

Hmm. Didn't I hint at something like the above and get the "who do you think you are?" treatment?

JP will probably hang around long enough to organise himself a nice golden handshake. A secret handshake probably. 

[floydraser]

13 hours ago, dom said:

At the moment, there just seems to be 99% moaning and a tiny number of people actively doing anything. I suspect the 5 MPs stepping up is primarily the result of James Knight's actions. One thing BRAG could be said to have achieved is concentrating disgruntled people in one place where they're easy to communicate with, but not much else seems to be forthcoming from them to date and there are some elements within the group which definitely need removing.

I beg to differ. I know relatively little about James Knight (before anyone chirps up to remind me so!) but from what I have learned about him during my VERY SHORT experience of the Broads I have come to recognise him as being a very brave man indeed. However, I doubt whether he alone could have inspired the amount of actions that BRAG must have in their short exsistence. Nothing can be proven of course but I doubt James could have inspired so many people to influence five MPs; I think they are interested in more votes than just his one. My opinion of Facebook has never changed, it's awful. BRAG have identified their enemies strengths and weaknesses from the start and one of those "enemies" has been Facebook itself. The main committee have used it as well as anyone could have done in my opinion. I think it is they who have galvanised everyone into action, even those who think their thunder is about to be stolen. I think it is BRAG and their influence which has filtered through other media like this forum, who have in some small way inspired so many people to write or take other action.

Well done BRAG.

Edit: I agree some elements need removing but best not to go into detail, especially here! 

[dom]

8 hours ago, Vaughan said:

As one of the grey haired old men that has been mentioned above     but who was nonetheless quite heavily involved in the running of Broadland "in his day", I can look back and say that in fact the BA was supposed to be more than a mundane harbor authority (the Commissioners), so that more decisions could be made in one place, rather than seeking them from several different committees and agencies.

From what I can work out, you probably wouldn't have been a grey haired old man when you were involved though. You'd have been a younger man with a very active involvement and commercial interests in the hire boat industry.

That's what's needed now - a better balanced BA with more representation from commercial, and particularly hire boating interests. It's glaringly obvious that the few who are involved get the opportunity to express views, but those views are completely ignored. Listening to the decision on tolls (2nd meeting, not just the navcom), it seemed to me that option C was clearly supported, proposed and seconded. It was a mystery to me how it then disappeared and was replaced by a more costly alternative. It may well be something was lost in translation only being conveyed in audio, but it sounded like the voting procedure was twisted to suit a predetermined outcome.

It's not just the hire boat industry which should have a say though. Clearly, from a lot of discussion on here lately, pubs and restaurants equally bare the brunt of an unhealthy economy. The BA should encompass input from the hospitality industry too - and give them a voice to express concerns about things like the current flooding preventing Horning Ferry being able to operate their business without disruption, or why numbers of visitors in season was so low this year.

 

[dom]

3 hours ago, floydraser said:

I beg to differ. I know relatively little about James Knight (before anyone chirps up to remind me so!) but from what I have learned about him during my VERY SHORT experience of the Broads I have come to recognise him as being a very brave man indeed. However, I doubt whether he alone could have inspired the amount of actions that BRAG must have in their short exsistence.

I wouldn't underestimate his influence. His wife (who I went to primary school with) has substantial industry experience and his father in-law has long been one of the best known faces in the industry. Even his mother-in-law used to race with the late Jill Thwaite, so no doubt has countless friends and connections in the industry. There was also a guy by the name of Knight used to work for Blakes way back, who sadly died very young. I've wondered on a few occasions whether he might be a relative.

3 hours ago, floydraser said:

I think it is BRAG and their influence which has filtered through other media like this forum, who have in some small way inspired so many people to write or take other action.

I think the point I'm trying to make though is that even vast amounts of noise online rarely have much impact in the real world. BRAG has undoubtedly collected the aggrieved together online but, as far as I'm aware, it doesn't go beyond that. To make big steps forward, there need to be actual real world events taking place. It may well be that this is the case, but I've certainly not heard about it if so.

Also worth pointing out, the group which should be helping to facilitate change for private boaters should by rights really be NSBA, who have a formal, real word organisation with an established relationship with BA. If anything though, there seems to be a bit of rift forming between NSBA and BRAG.

One of NSBA's key members is also daughter of Peter Bower, skipper of Hathor and member of Wherry Yacht Charter, which has also suffered damage due to the actions of the BA in regard to moorings.

When you start digging into the industry, it's a massive web of interconnected families and organisations. None of them has substantial influence within BA. That really ought to change.

 

 

[Vaughan]

47 minutes ago, dom said:

When you start digging into the industry, it's a massive web of interconnected families and organisations. None of them has substantial influence within BA. That really ought to change.

It is indeed interconnected in many ways (Just look at the Broom family) and James Knight is also my brother in law. Which means I am related by marriage to Len Funnel, which has given us some amusement on occasions!  

When you say they have no influence within BA this will be because those in the business who took the trouble to get involved in BA over recent years have either left in exasperation or been eased out because they dared to say something.

[Vaughan]

1 hour ago, dom said:

There was also a guy by the name of Knight used to work for Blakes way back, who sadly died very young. I've wondered on a few occasions whether he might be a relative.

No, Jack wasn't, but he was a wonderful man who many remember.  He was the sort of operations manager although he didn't have that title, and for all the yards off the Broads, on the canals and the Thames, Jack "was Blakes".  He was the only one they knew and he did all of the negotiations on their behalf, spending most of his time out on the road visiting member boatyards.

He was one of life's real gentlemen and I only saw him lose his patience on one occasion :

CBL had one of our boats on a stand at the Dusseldorf boat show and Jack was helping us with a Blakes sales kiosk on our stand.  He got "buttonholed" by a local man who who spent ages telling him how much he knew about boats, the business, the common market and all the rest of it and Jack couldn't get rid of him.  In the end the man asked him if he had been to Dusseldorf before.  Before Jack could stop himself he replied "Yes, a couple of times but I didn't see much of it as it was dark, and I was at 15,000ft in the rear gun turret of a Lancaster Bomber".

He mean't it as well : he was ex Bomber Command aircrew - and had the moustache to prove it. 

[rightsaidfred]

1 hour ago, dom said:

 think the point I'm trying to make though is that even vast amounts of noise online rarely have much impact in the real world. BRAG has undoubtedly collected the aggrieved together online but, as far as I'm aware, it doesn't go beyond that. To make big steps forward, there need to be actual real world events taking place. It may well be that this is the case, but I've certainly not heard about it if so.

Just because you don`t see it dosn`t mean nothings happening.

Fred

 

[dom]

35 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

It is indeed interconnected in many ways (Just look at the Broom family) and James Knight is also my brother in law. Which means I am related by marriage to Len Funnel, which has given us some amusement on occasions!  

That'll keep my brain busy for a while working out how that all fits together!

20 minutes ago, Vaughan said:

No, Jack wasn't, but he was a wonderful man who many remember. 

he was ex Bomber Command aircrew - and had the moustache to prove it. 

So it was Jack. I thought you might know. I couldn't remember his first name, so tried to Google it and found a reference to a milepost on the Trent and Mersey being dedicated to him by David Court back in 82 sponsored by "His Friends in the Hire Boat Industry". I remember the day he died vividly, but wasn't old enough to have got to know him properly - which is a shame, as my grandfather was a Lancaster pilot, so it'd have been interesting to have heard his experiences.

[floydraser]

2 hours ago, dom said:

I wouldn't underestimate his influence. His wife (who I went to primary school with) has substantial industry experience and his father in-law has long been one of the best known faces in the industry. Even his mother-in-law used to race with the late Jill Thwaite, so no doubt has countless friends and connections in the industry. There was also a guy by the name of Knight used to work for Blakes way back, who sadly died very young. I've wondered on a few occasions whether he might be a relative.

Well whoever he's married to, whoever you went to school with, whoever his mother-in-law used to race with, he, and a lot of other people have been unable to shift JP from his lofty perch for donkey's years.  Then BRAG came along and five MPs are involved. Coincidence?

As a toll payer I would prefer the BA and any other agencies involved to be run by the right people, not another group of mates looking after each other.

As I said before, BRAG managed Facebook and while it was not perfect, part of it involved actions behind the scenes because obviously, discussing every last detail on the public platform would have left them open to trolls. And when anything happened behind closed doors they let people know. They made every effort to avoid closing the group.

[dom]

46 minutes ago, floydraser said:

Well whoever he's married to, whoever you went to school with, whoever his mother-in-law used to race with, he, and a lot of other people have been unable to shift JP from his lofty perch for donkey's years. 

I think it would be relatively easy to highlight certain information which would place him in a very unfavourable light. At that point in time, BRAG could potentially be very useful, using sheer numbers and the ability of social media to get people "cancelled". It's a fairly nuclear option though and would likely have wider repercussions. I'm collating some info at the moment to decide whether it's something to pursue and just waiting on an FOI from elsewhere. There's some further info I'd really like to source, which is also proving difficult.

What I'm not sure at the moment though is whether it's politically expedient to remove JP, or whether you'd just get more of the same. There's a lot going on at the same time with flooding, Herring Bridge, tolls and possible inaccurate data all coming along at the same time. It might be advantageous to try and kick up such a storm it results in a root and branch review of BA as a whole.

 

[vanessan]

2 hours ago, dom said:

It might be advantageous to try and kick up such a storm it results in a root and branch review of BA as a whole.

Isn’t that what the various factions are trying to do? Ie Broads Reform Action Group for one. 

[dom]

13 minutes ago, vanessan said:

Isn’t that what the various factions are trying to do? Ie Broads Reform Action Group for one. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm generally on the side of BRAG. I think if it wants to be taken seriously though (by parties on both sides), it needs to be much more explicit in what it's trying to achieve. What is "complete reform", what does it entail and when will it happen? I think it needs a clearly identifiable board or management team, and it needs to consider meetings in the real world. At the moment, there seems to be a lot of proposing of ideas, or pointing out of issues, but a lot just seem to disappear into the ether without seemingly gathering any traction. Is anyone actually recording, collating or acting on any of the suggestions?

[ExSurveyor]

It would be more appropriate to voice any suggestions or criticism directly to Brag rather than to list them here.

[rightsaidfred]

11 hours ago, dom said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm generally on the side of BRAG. I think if it wants to be taken seriously though (by parties on both sides), it needs to be much more explicit in what it's trying to achieve. What is "complete reform", what does it entail and when will it happen? I think it needs a clearly identifiable board or management team, and it needs to consider meetings in the real world. At the moment, there seems to be a lot of proposing of ideas, or pointing out of issues, but a lot just seem to disappear into the ether without seemingly gathering any traction. Is anyone actually recording, collating or acting on any of the suggestions?

If you bother to look through the groups FB posts you will see a list of committee members, an agenda and posts from the committee on various items including a request for evidence that can be submitted.

Fred

[RS2021]

I see the BA have introduced a new policy for non payment of Tolls. Check out Bridgecrafts Facebook page to see their new enforcement equipment 🥺